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#Post#: 13068--------------------------------------------------
Performing a prohibted turn, Redbridge, Ilford High Rd.
DIR By: zeezee
Date: December 29, 2023, 4:54 pm
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Hi All,
The first post on the new forum - Looks and feels better! :)
So I turned right (prohibited) into a road that I was not
supposed to. At the time I didn't see the signs but I have been
back since and they are up.
Just posting up to see if there was any chance of me fighting
this out from any angle.
Many Thanks for the help as always - whether it's a win or lose.
HTML https://my.redbridge.gov.uk/ParkingPCN/Review
HTML https://i.imgur.com/jjB9mLa.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/7ycl5k1.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/B2VtY8I.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/bfNEUHM.jpg
#Post#: 13069--------------------------------------------------
Re: Performing a prohibted turn, Redbridge, Ilford High Rd.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 29, 2023, 5:55 pm
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Both traffic light signal heads have a No Right Turn sign on
them, plus there is a separate sign on the right-hand side of
the road: -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/Szx9yqdqnYAcUBgr5
Video shows a clear contravention with no hesitation about
making the turn.
I have to say I see no credible appeal based on their evidence.
Did you just chance your arm and hope to get away with it,
because that is what it looks like to me ?
However the PCN is flawed in the box headed "Do not ignore this
notice"
It states you must pay the PCN penalty within 28 days of the
date of the notice. In the same paragraph, it then goes on to
say that you must either pay the PCN penalty or submit
representations within 28 days from the date of service of the
notice.
So when must you pay, because they've given you two separate 28
day periods to pay the PCN; which one is correct ?
The reason councils get this wrong is because the Act under
which the PCN is served is itself flawed, mandating payment of
the PCN 28 days from date of notice, and submission of
representations from date of service of notice. Service is
assumed in law to be 2 days after the notice date. So if you
submit reps on day 30 from the date of notice, you're within the
period for submitting reps, but out-of-time for paying the PCN
!!
So by mis-stating the payment period the PCN is flawed and a
nullity.
#Post#: 13077--------------------------------------------------
Re: Performing a prohibted turn, Redbridge, Ilford High Rd.
DIR By: zeezee
Date: December 30, 2023, 7:43 am
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So my intention was not to do that right-turn, but when I
realised that I had forgotten something at the Aldi, I quickly
made a decision to do that right after passing the signs, so had
no idea that it was a prohibited right (As opposed to doing a
U-turn further down or turning into a road and coming back).
So you feel this is an obvious procedural impropriety and I can
fight it down this route?
#Post#: 13096--------------------------------------------------
Re: Performing a prohibted turn, Redbridge, Ilford High Rd.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 30, 2023, 12:37 pm
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--- Quote from: zeezee link ---
>
> So my intention was not to do that right-turn, but when I
realised that I had forgotten something at the Aldi, I quickly
made a decision to do that right after passing the signs, so had
no idea that it was a prohibited right (As opposed to doing a
U-turn further down or turning into a road and coming back).
>
> So you feel this is an obvious procedural impropriety and I
can fight it down this route?
>
--- End Quote ---
An argument based on the misundstood time period for paying and
appealing in the LLA & TfL Act 2003 are a bit beyond most of the
London Councils, so you tend to end up at London Tribunals with
the full PCN penalty in play. Whether there is enough wrong on
the PCN to convince an adjudicator, I'm not one to judge; it
should do, bearing in mind councils expect total perfection from
motorists ! See what the others say, but don't miss any
deadlines.
Bear in mind we are in the Christmas-New Year Interregnum and
people will be away.
#Post#: 13154--------------------------------------------------
Re: Performing a prohibted turn, Redbridge, Ilford High Rd.
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 31, 2023, 2:31 pm
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[member=12]Incandescent[/member]: The PCN is ok in terms of the
time periods. The law is an ass, actually. The so-called
"conflation argument" is now fully dead and buried as the "or"
is regarded by most adjudicators as disjunctive rather than
conjunctive. I have researched many cases - and represented
many too - on this issue.
The only possible issue is the TWOC ground which limits to
theft.
I bring a collateral challenge on the basis that the PCN is
unenforceable because the taken without consent ground clearly
fetters to theft by its very wording that a crime report be
provided. Therefore, this inaccurate reflection of the statutory
ground does not take into account that a relative, or friend,
may have taken the vehicle without the owner's permission so
that the owner would not necessarily, if at all, report the
matter to the Police in such circumstances.
#Post#: 13159--------------------------------------------------
Re: Performing a prohibted turn, Redbridge, Ilford High Rd.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 31, 2023, 6:41 pm
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Well, the LLA & TfL Act 2003 is certainly an ass ! It really is
about time the Government forced London councils and TfL to use
the Traffic Management Act 2004. I suspect the councils and TfL
love it, because they can set their own PCN penalties, which are
already twice the rest of the country.
#Post#: 13224--------------------------------------------------
Re: Performing a prohibted turn, Redbridge, Ilford High Rd.
DIR By: zeezee
Date: January 2, 2024, 1:11 pm
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I can confirm the car was not stolen - lol
Is it 14 working days or just consecutive days to get an appeal
in?
#Post#: 13229--------------------------------------------------
Re: Performing a prohibted turn, Redbridge, Ilford High Rd.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: January 2, 2024, 5:23 pm
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--- Quote from: zeezee link ---
>
> I can confirm the car was not stolen - lol
>
> Is it 14 working days or just consecutive days to get an
appeal in?
>
--- End Quote ---
14 days from date of notice
see 4 (8)(a)(iv)
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/part/2/crossheading/penalty-charges/enacted
#Post#: 13392--------------------------------------------------
Re: Performing a prohibted turn, Redbridge, Ilford High Rd.
DIR By: zeezee
Date: January 6, 2024, 2:38 pm
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not sure what else to add here - but this is what I got so
far...
------------
Dear council,
I am appealing this PCN based on procedural impropriety.
The PCN states you must pay the PCN penalty within 28 days of
the date of the notice. But in the same paragraph, it then goes
on to say that you must either pay the PCN penalty or submit
representations within 28 days from the date of service of the
notice.
So the question is when must you pay?, because the letter states
2 separate 28-day periods to either pay the PCN or submission of
representations from the date of the notice; which one is
correct?
I feel this is confusing/misleading and puts the motorist at
odds.
please help to clarify
#Post#: 13451--------------------------------------------------
Re: Performing a prohibted turn, Redbridge, Ilford High Rd.
DIR By: zeezee
Date: January 8, 2024, 8:02 am
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I think I have until tomorrow to send it to them - Is this
version good to send or have I missed something?
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