DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 122968--------------------------------------------------
Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop, Clayhall
Avenue
DIR By: flash2005
Date: June 25, 2026, 9:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I'd appreciate some advice on whether this is worth contesting.
The driver saw a vehicle in a nearby parking bay whose occupant
had already entered the vehicle and closed the door, so it was
obvious they were about to leave. The driver therefore queued
behind that vehicle for approximately 20 seconds while it
started up and pulled out, then immediately parked in the
now-vacant bay.
During that time, the passenger exited the vehicle safely. The
driver remained in the vehicle throughout and never left it.
The CCTV footage does show the other driver getting into their
vehicle and closing the door before driving away, which supports
the explanation that the vehicle was simply waiting for the
parking space to become available. However, the CCTV does not
show the full 20-second sequence before the space became free,
so it does not provide the complete context.
My questions are:
- Does the fact that the CCTV does not show the full sequence of
events provide any grounds for challenge?
- Is there any argument that the vehicle was only momentarily
stationary while waiting for an imminently available parking
space, rather than stopping for the purposes of the bus stop
restriction?
- or any technical/PCN wording mistake related grounds to
contest this ?
I'd be grateful for any opinions before deciding whether to pay
at the discounted rate or make formal representations.
---------------------------------------------------------
PCN
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/CfdSwO8_xl.jpeg
HTML https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/TAceUEx_xl.jpeg
HTML https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/RPvbusz_xl.jpeg
HTML https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/ybxY0Ig_xl.jpeg
---------------------------------------------------------
Council evidence
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/Th3cUO2_xl.jpeg
---------------------------------------------------------
Council Video
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://youtu.be/W5Njdy-QUuw
HTML https://youtu.be/W5Njdy-QUuw
---------------------------------------------------------
Google Street View
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/pWo9QrRE5fAiTt9dA
#Post#: 122972--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop,
Clayhall Avenue
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: June 25, 2026, 9:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Waiting for a space to clear for that length of time won't win I
think.
We can check the PCN.
----------
Case reference
Appellant
Authority
VRM
PCN Details
PCN
Contravention date
Contravention time
Contravention location
Penalty amount
Contravention
Referral date
Decision Date
Adjudicator
Appeal decision
Direction
Owner.
Reasons
video link today, but she has not attended and so the appeal is
being decided on the evidence presented.
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being
stopped in a restricted bus stop.
I have looked at the CCTV footage and the library images
submitted by the Council. The footage lasts a matter of seconds.
It shows Ms McCartney’s car stopping, the reverse lights being
engaged and the vehicle then starting to reverse. The footage
clearly supports Ms McCartney’s evidence that she was reversing
into the vacant loading bay and I accept her evidence. It is
unclear as to why the Council stopped the footage without
showing the completion of the manoeuvre. In my judgement, a
vehicle engaged in a manoeuvre cannot be regarded as being
“stopped” for the purposes of a no stopping contravention. I
would take an entirely different view if the vehicle was stopped
waiting for a parking place to clear but this was stopping as
part of the manoeuvre.
#Post#: 122987--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop,
Clayhall Avenue
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: June 25, 2026, 11:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The first thing to say is that Redbridge will reject your reps,
as the video shows a contravention, and they like to have the
money as well, even if just the discount amount. So you'd have
to take them to London Tribunals, and I have to say I don't
think the odds are good, but wait and see what the others say.
Of course the PCN, and also the relevant Redbridge web pages may
show serious errors which could be used for a technical appeal
on the basis of a procedural impropriety, as the PCN is under
the Traffic Managment Act 2004, where this is a statutory appeal
ground. Such appeals have no connection to the actual
contravention.
#Post#: 123694--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop,
Clayhall Avenue
DIR By: flash2005
Date: July 3, 2026, 11:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Can any of the arguments in this case be used ?
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/redbridge-47j-stopped-on-a-restricted-bus-stop-or-stand-high-st-e11/msg122207/#msg122207
#Post#: 123695--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop,
Clayhall Avenue
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: July 3, 2026, 11:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
There MUST be a yellow no stopping plate. There isn't.
#Post#: 123712--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop,
Clayhall Avenue
DIR By: tincombe
Date: July 3, 2026, 4:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The GSV link posted by the OP shows that the No Stopping sign is
present, it's just not in view. It's on the lamp column at the
beginning of the marked area
#Post#: 123714--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop,
Clayhall Avenue
DIR By: flash2005
Date: July 3, 2026, 4:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Here is a draft of my appeal, Please let me know if there is
any feedback.
Dear Sir or Madam,
I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and I make the
following formal representations against the above Penalty
Charge Notice on the statutory ground that the alleged
contravention did not occur. I do not admit the contravention
and, without prejudice to that position, I also rely on the
further matters set out below.
Background – the circumstances of the stop
1.
identified a vehicle in a marked parking bay immediately ahead
whose occupant had already entered that vehicle and closed the
door, such that it was evident the bay was about to become
vacant. The driver drew up behind that vehicle and waited, for
approximately twenty seconds, while the vehicle ahead started
its engine and manoeuvred out of the bay into the carriageway.
The moment the bay was vacated, the driver parked in it and the
vehicle was clear of the bus stop area.
2.
the live carriageway, it would have been unsafe and
impracticable for the driver to proceed: the vehicle ahead was
moving across the driver's path, and overtaking a vehicle
mid-manoeuvre on its offside into oncoming traffic would have
created an obvious risk of collision. In those moments the
vehicle was, in substance, prevented from proceeding by
circumstances beyond the driver's control. I refer the Council
to Schedule 7, Part 6, paragraph 4(2)(b) of the Traffic Signs
Regulations and General Directions 2016, which expressly excepts
“a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances
beyond the driver’s control or which has to be stopped in order
to avoid injury or damage to persons or property”.
3.
manoeuvre. The vehicle was not parked, was not left unattended,
the driver remained at the controls throughout, and the vehicle
moved off and into the bay as soon as the bay was clear. No bus
was present at, approaching, or in any way impeded from using
the stop during this brief period.
Signage and marking of the alleged restriction
4.
similar) at or serving this bus stop on Clayhall Avenue. The
Council is put to strict proof that a bus stop clearway
restriction was lawfully in force and properly indicated at the
material time, and in particular to confirm:
(a)
clearway or one operative only during specified times. If the
restriction is time-limited, an upright sign indicating the
operational times is required for the restriction to be
adequately conveyed to drivers, and none is present;
(b)
to diagram 1025.1 of the TSRGD 2016 (including the required
broad continuous yellow line) and was complete, unobscured and
in a good state of repair at the material time. The Council is
requested to provide contemporaneous photographs of the markings
and any signage, together with details of the last site
inspection;
(c)
if applicable, any order) under which contravention 47j is
enforced at this location.
5.
Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3 (Regulatory Signs), which
contemplates that upright signing accompanies bus stop clearway
markings and states, in terms, that where a time period applies
“it will be helpful to drivers if the sign does face oncoming
traffic”. In the absence of any upright plate whatsoever, a
driver momentarily halted in the course of a parking manoeuvre
had no adequate indication of the extent or operative hours of
any restriction.
The CCTV evidence
6.
excerpt and do not capture the full sequence of events, in
particular the period during which the occupant of the vehicle
in the parking bay entered that vehicle, closed the door,
started up and manoeuvred out, nor my vehicle subsequently
parking in the vacated bay. I formally request disclosure of the
full, unedited CCTV footage from camera 3341 covering the period
from at least two minutes before to two minutes after the
alleged contravention. I am advised that the footage the Council
holds does show the other vehicle's driver entering their
vehicle and closing the door before driving away, which
corroborates the account above.
Proportionality
7.
made out, a stop of approximately twenty seconds in the course
of taking up an adjacent parking bay, with no bus present or
impeded, is de minimis. Enforcement in these circumstances
serves no traffic management purpose, and I invite the Council
to exercise its discretion to cancel the PCN in any event, as
your own Notice indicates you will do where there are suitable
mitigating circumstances.
Conclusion
For the reasons above, the alleged contravention did not occur
and the PCN should be cancelled. If the Council rejects these
representations, please provide with the Notice of Rejection:
(i) the full unedited CCTV footage from camera 3341; (ii) site
photographs of all signs and markings at the Clayhall Avenue bus
stop; and (iii) confirmation of the operative hours and legal
basis of the restriction, so that the matter may be pursued
before the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators at London
Tribunals, where an application for costs will be considered if
the Council's conduct is found to have been wholly unreasonable.
#Post#: 123774--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop,
Clayhall Avenue
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: July 4, 2026, 6:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: tincombe link ---
>
> The GSV link posted by the OP shows that the No Stopping sign
is present, it's just not in view. It's on the lamp column at
the beginning of the marked area
>
--- End Quote ---
So wnat?
#Post#: 123775--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop,
Clayhall Avenue
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: July 4, 2026, 6:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: flash2005 link ---
>
> Here is a draft of my appeal, Please let me know if there is
any feedback.
>
> Dear Sir or Madam,
> I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and I make the
following formal representations against the above Penalty
Charge Notice on the statutory ground that the alleged
contravention did not occur. I do not admit the contravention
and, without prejudice to that position, I also rely on the
further matters set out below.
> Background – the circumstances of the stop
> 1. The vehicle was in the process of parking. The driver had
identified a vehicle in a marked parking bay immediately ahead
whose occupant had already entered that vehicle and closed the
door, such that it was evident the bay was about to become
vacant. The driver drew up behind that vehicle and waited, for
approximately twenty seconds, while the vehicle ahead started
its engine and manoeuvred out of the bay into the carriageway.
The moment the bay was vacated, the driver parked in it and the
vehicle was clear of the bus stop area.
> 2. While the vehicle ahead was pulling out of the bay and into
the live carriageway, it would have been unsafe and
impracticable for the driver to proceed: the vehicle ahead was
moving across the driver's path, and overtaking a vehicle
mid-manoeuvre on its offside into oncoming traffic would have
created an obvious risk of collision. In those moments the
vehicle was, in substance, prevented from proceeding by
circumstances beyond the driver's control. I refer the Council
to Schedule 7, Part 6, paragraph 4(2)(b) of the Traffic Signs
Regulations and General Directions 2016, which expressly excepts
“a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances
beyond the driver’s control or which has to be stopped in order
to avoid injury or damage to persons or property”.
> 3. The stop was momentary and incidental to a lawful parking
manoeuvre. The vehicle was not parked, was not left unattended,
the driver remained at the controls throughout, and the vehicle
moved off and into the bay as soon as the bay was clear. No bus
was present at, approaching, or in any way impeded from using
the stop during this brief period.
> Signage and marking of the alleged restriction
> 4. There is no upright “no stopping” sign (diagram 974 or
similar) at or serving this bus stop on Clayhall Avenue. The
Council is put to strict proof that a bus stop clearway
restriction was lawfully in force and properly indicated at the
material time, and in particular to confirm:
> (a) whether the restriction relied upon is a 24-hour bus stop
clearway or one operative only during specified times. If the
restriction is time-limited, an upright sign indicating the
operational times is required for the restriction to be
adequately conveyed to drivers, and none is present;
> (b) that the road marking relied upon conformed in all
respects to diagram 1025.1 of the TSRGD 2016 (including the
required broad continuous yellow line) and was complete,
unobscured and in a good state of repair at the material time.
The Council is requested to provide contemporaneous photographs
of the markings and any signage, together with details of the
last site inspection;
> (c) the legal basis of the restriction (statutory provision
and, if applicable, any order) under which contravention 47j is
enforced at this location.
> 5. I further refer the Council to paragraph 13.24.9 of the
Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3 (Regulatory Signs), which
contemplates that upright signing accompanies bus stop clearway
markings and states, in terms, that where a time period applies
“it will be helpful to drivers if the sign does face oncoming
traffic”. In the absence of any upright plate whatsoever, a
driver momentarily halted in the course of a parking manoeuvre
had no adequate indication of the extent or operative hours of
any restriction.
> The CCTV evidence
> 6. The still images served with the PCN show only a short
excerpt and do not capture the full sequence of events, in
particular the period during which the occupant of the vehicle
in the parking bay entered that vehicle, closed the door,
started up and manoeuvred out, nor my vehicle subsequently
parking in the vacated bay. I formally request disclosure of the
full, unedited CCTV footage from camera 3341 covering the period
from at least two minutes before to two minutes after the
alleged contravention. I am advised that the footage the Council
holds does show the other vehicle's driver entering their
vehicle and closing the door before driving away, which
corroborates the account above.
> Proportionality
> 7. Even if, which is not admitted, a technical contravention
is made out, a stop of approximately twenty seconds in the
course of taking up an adjacent parking bay, with no bus present
or impeded, is de minimis. Enforcement in these circumstances
serves no traffic management purpose, and I invite the Council
to exercise its discretion to cancel the PCN in any event, as
your own Notice indicates you will do where there are suitable
mitigating circumstances.
> Conclusion
> For the reasons above, the alleged contravention did not occur
and the PCN should be cancelled. If the Council rejects these
representations, please provide with the Notice of Rejection:
(i) the full unedited CCTV footage from camera 3341; (ii) site
photographs of all signs and markings at the Clayhall Avenue bus
stop; and (iii) confirmation of the operative hours and legal
basis of the restriction, so that the matter may be pursued
before the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators at London
Tribunals, where an application for costs will be considered if
the Council's conduct is found to have been wholly unreasonable.
>
--- End Quote ---
Far too long and admitting and threatening. Just this: I put you
to strict proof that this bus stop is legally signed. If you are
unable to do so, please cancel the PCN.
Your draft gives them too many opportunities and also provides
them with answers. A killer question is short and to the point.
If they do not reply to all of them the Halton High Court kicks
in.
#Post#: 123780--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop,
Clayhall Avenue
DIR By: flash2005
Date: July 5, 2026, 2:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Here is the revised letter. Given the signage is there (albeit
a bit small), should point 1 still be included ?
Dear Sir or Madam,
I make representations against this PCN on the statutory ground
that the alleged contravention did not occur.
The bus stop at this location is not signed with any upright “no
stopping” plate. I put the Council to strict proof that the
restriction was lawfully in place and properly indicated at the
material time. Please provide:
1.
June 2026;
2.
conformed to diagram 1025.1 of the TSRGD 2016 and was complete,
unobscured and in good repair;
3.
which contravention 47j is enforced at this location; and
4.
If the Council is unable to evidence each of the above, please
cancel the PCN. I require each point raised in these
representations to be addressed in any Notice of Rejection.
Yours faithfully,
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 2
DIR Next Page