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#Post#: 119594--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 23, 2026, 1:48 pm
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--- Quote from: MrChips link ---
>
> I think it's a strong argument but would be the first to admit
an adjudicator will know more about the law than me.
>
> The way the decision is worded, however, I do wonder if that
individual argued wrongly about what the issue is. The building
line isn't really relevant how I see it. The issue is that the
box junction has to be situated at a junction of two roads. Is
Telcon Road a road in the legal sense if it's blocked off to the
public at the point it meets Blackwell Lane?
>
> I can find at least one other case in another location where
this argument has been successful.
>
--- End Quote ---
Mr Harman needs to be pensioned off, his argument is totally
ridiculous.
#Post#: 119596--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
DIR By: MrChips
Date: May 23, 2026, 2:20 pm
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I think maybe Ms Vignoli too! Stopping due to a stationary gate
is a contravention 🤣
Case Details
Case reference 2260033530
Appellant Siteglass Southern Ltd
Authority Royal Borough of Greenwich
VRM LX22ZXS
PCN Details
PCN GR24436527
Contravention date 27 Nov 2025
Contravention time 09:54:00
Contravention location Blackwall Lane / Meantime Brewery
Penalty amount GBP 160.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date -
Decision Date 19 May 2026
Adjudicator Elaine Vignoli
Appeal decision Appeal refused
Direction Full penalty charge notice amount stated to be paid
within 28 days.
Reasons
I am asked to determine an appeal in relation to contravention
code “31 - Entering and stopping in a box junction”, on 27
November 2025, at approximately 9:54am on Blackwall
Lane/Meantime Brewery.
The Appellant appeals on the basis that the driver was
attempting to enter through a gate the other side of the yellow
box and had pulled as far off the box as they could, whilst
waiting for the gates to be opened. I am afraid that this is not
a basis in law to allow for stopping on a box junction. The
contravention occurred and the Appellant’s arguments do not
alter the liability.
Accordingly, the appeal is refused and the full penalty charge
is payable.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NdqvRwZgPg
#Post#: 119603--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
DIR By: astralite
Date: May 23, 2026, 3:19 pm
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The Harman decision is dreadful; the Vignoli decision is
appalling.
In respect of the OP’s PCN, ‘Meantime Brewery’ is not a road.
Therefore it can’t be named as a road forming a junction between
two or more roads. The area is clearly a managed entrance to an
industrial site with associated car parking.
The video of the OP’s brief stop late at night shows (as does
the Siteglass PCN during the morning) that at the time the gates
were closed. The OP’s video ends before the OP exits the box.
We saw similar cases in PePiPoo days. Could TMOs help re the
status of the ‘roads’ involved?
#Post#: 119604--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 23, 2026, 3:23 pm
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Just wondering where they are getting adjudicators from these
days. Ms Vignoli doesn't even know what the contravention is for
box junctions !! "....has to stop in the box due to the presence
of stationary vehicles!
My God, what has become of London Tribunals. I think I would be
complaining to the Chief Adjudicator and suggest that Ms Vognoli
is unsuitable to be an adjudicator due to her wilful ignorance
of the law..
#Post#: 119606--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
DIR By: MrChips
Date: May 23, 2026, 3:26 pm
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I was wondering if I had a duty to get in touch re that case and
suggest they take another look and Ms Vignoli gets some
retraining? Is that something I'm able to do if I'm not a party
to the case?
#Post#: 119608--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
DIR By: astralite
Date: May 23, 2026, 3:43 pm
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Why not?
We could all do it.
Alongside helping gmoney with their PCN.
I am willing to to put my credentials, such as they are, on the
line.
#Post#: 119625--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: May 24, 2026, 5:00 am
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Case from yesterday.
-------
Case reference
Appellant
Authority
VRM
PCN Details
PCN
Contravention date
Contravention time
Contravention location
Penalty amount
Contravention
Referral date
Decision Date
Adjudicator
Appeal decision
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
A yellow box is not unenforceable on the ground that one of the
two roads where they meet and the box is laid is private. I
believe Tendoc Rd is.
The appellant's written case to tribunal on this aspect of his
case sets out relevant legislation correctly. The important
point in this appeal is not whether Tendoc Rd is private or
adopted highway. It turns on public access to Tendoc Rd.
When the Meantime Brewery was in operation the public may have
had access via the Tendoc Rd to brewery premises. I have seen on
the internet it did once have brewery tours but they have ceased
and I have inferred from the cctv clip it was at the material
time a development site gated so that there is no public access.
Very likely there would have been some security at site access
points to prevent public entering at will. Whatever may have
been the historical position justifying earlier enforcement of
the yellow box and its status, I have not been satisfied by the
evidence in this appeal that the box when the appellant was
recorded driving was one at a junction of roads where a yellow
box contravetion can be said to occur.
In short I have seen insufficient evidence to conclude the
alleged contravention occurred.
Given my above remarks about the box and evidence I need not
write further about other aspects of the appeal case.
#Post#: 119637--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
DIR By: tincombe
Date: May 24, 2026, 8:50 am
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IMO,
The regs provide in part:
(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an
area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and
which is—
(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction),
the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at
its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to
the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station
I would refer to (a) and (d).
If the draughtsman/parliament had intended that ANY vehicle
crossover could be considered as a 'road' and therefore meet the
requirements of (a), then (d) is redundant.
But it's there.
IMO, any correct and purposeful interpretation of the regulation
means that 'road' relates to carriageways. By this measure, the
vehicle access crossover here cannot be considered as a
carriageway to which the public have a right to drive on (as
opposed to over) therefore it cannot be construed as being a
road.
On this basis, IMO the markings do not meet the requirements of
para. 11(6) of Schedule 9 to the TSRGD and therefore the
contravention did not occur.
The markings also don't extend for the full width of the
crossover!
#Post#: 119675--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
DIR By: MrChips
Date: May 25, 2026, 2:34 am
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gmoney - you haven't posted for a while, but the consensus on
here is you have a strong case.
Let us know how you'd like to proceed and we can assist with
drafting something for you if you like.
#Post#: 121248--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Borough PCN Meantime Brewery 31J Blackwall Ln
DIR By: gmoney
Date: June 9, 2026, 5:14 am
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Hi team
You've all been very wonderful; irritatingly the fact that this
thread had generated a page 2 had escaped me, so now having gone
through the process I'm only just seeing this now!
The initial appeal was refused, on the grounds of essentially
'we think this is a road', which was to be expected. I've logged
my appeal with London Tribunals, and put together a long list of
reasoning that will have been far more cack handed than whatever
you guys would have written, included all the above info RE
legality of the box junction + what constitutes a road legally.
Thanks for linking the most recent case; I shall include that in
my evidence, and keep you all abreast of any developments!
I was tempted to add a little something at the end about finding
it poor that Greenwich borough know that this is an illegal box
yet leave it there, but resisted
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