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#Post#: 11370--------------------------------------------------
Aberdeen, Being in a Bus Lane (Bus Gate), Guild Street
DIR By: ev2021
Date: November 27, 2023, 11:02 am
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Hi,
Posted this on Pepipoo but was advised to post here also.
I have received a bus lane enforcement charge notice for driving
in a bus gate on Guild Street in Aberdeen. I don't live in the
area anymore so wasn't aware of the number bus gates and
restriction that have been introduced in the city.
In all honesty I didn't even see the bus gate signs or process
the marking on the road. In my opinion the signage is unclear as
the blue bus gate signs don't stand out against the background
(and are pretty high up) and confusing as there is a lot going
on to process it all. As I don't live in Aberdeen I haven't been
able to go back to check the signage but have found the images
below.
As mentioned I wasn't aware of all the changes so was planning
to drive along Guild Street as I'd usually do. When turning on
to Guild Street (first attachment) I did take in the no access
sign for cars/motorbikes but too late to be able to do anything
about it. It's always been an area that has a lot going on in
with multiple lanes, lights and crossings to pay attention to so
with my concentration on being in the correct lane, cars turning
off ahead and the oncoming lights I didn't even see / take a bus
gate warning too. My mind was already wondering what / where am
I supposed to go as Guild Street wasn't somewhere I'd think of
being access only and I've continued through and not seen the
bus gate (second attachment).
The new read layout means prohibition of motor vehicles, except
for access as you turn on to Guild Street from Wapping Street
and then the bus gate is thrown in for good measure at the end
of Guild Street. So, I could have taken the first left off Guild
Street and remained in the prohibited zone but avoided the bus
gate if I had known.
It all looks so clear in a still photo! Even when I was coming
back the other way later I only avoided ending up coming back
through the bus gate in the other direction because the traffic
was slow / stopped allowing time to process everything.
I was just going to pay the £30 reduced charge but have found
some articles where the council is going to be making changing
the signage to make it "even clearer" to drivers (links below).
The council are going to make the bus gate signs more visible,
colour the road surface etc. That seems an admission that the
original signage is inadequate. The council were operating a
grace period up to the 8th November. But sounds like locals have
not even figured it all out so what chance to visitors have! The
news on the improved signage is from the start of November so
disgraceful to start sending out fines before making the
changes.
Is it worth making an appeal based on the poor signage and fact
that is being changed to make it clearer? Attached the charge
notice for info too.
I've noticed some points in the ETRO that I'll check and add a
post later.
Thanks.
HTML https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen-aberdeenshire/6245208/bus-gates-aberdeen-signs/
HTML https://www.aberdeenlive.news/news/aberdeen-news/new-work-aberdeen-bus-gates-8878827
HTML https://i.imgur.com/M2ErnSw.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/DTCJK1D.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/tAe4dlh.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Tx7ZomE.png
[attach=1][attach=2]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 11372--------------------------------------------------
Re: Aberdeen, Being in a Bus Lane (Bus Gate), Guild Street
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 27, 2023, 11:41 am
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Your links don't work.
#Post#: 11404--------------------------------------------------
Re: Aberdeen, Being in a Bus Lane (Bus Gate), Guild Street
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 27, 2023, 1:34 pm
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I've fixed the links, here's the video:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2wcERT8NNc
[member=1013]ev2021[/member] have you got the ETRO?
#Post#: 11428--------------------------------------------------
Re: Aberdeen, Being in a Bus Lane (Bus Gate), Guild Street
DIR By: ev2021
Date: November 27, 2023, 5:35 pm
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Hi [member=1]cp8759[/member] thanks for fixing the links.
Here is the link to the ETRO. Hopefully works this time. It it
taken from the second link which also has overall info about all
the road changes.
I had thought the prohibition of motor vehicles might be
incorrect as Wapping Street continues to Guild Street according
to TomTom maps. Google maps show it changes to Carmelite Street
so it is probably ok.
The other thing I noticed was how the new bus gate is defined
for east bound on Guild Street. There are two entries:
“The eastbound carriageway, between its junctions with Stirling
Street and Exchange Street” and
“The eastbound carriageway, between Exchange Street and Market
Street”
Only the latter appears to have been implemented. This can be
seen in the video. Should the bus gate be starting at Stirling
Street or has the two entries given the council flexibility on
how it was implemented? The second link below states it’s along
the full length of the two.
HTML https://consultation.aberdeencity.gov.uk/operations/citycentre-experimental-tro-2023/user_uploads/citycentre_trafficmanagement_experimentalorder_july23_redacted.pdf
HTML https://consultation.aberdeencity.gov.uk/operations/citycentre-experimental-tro-2023/
#Post#: 11485--------------------------------------------------
Re: Aberdeen, Being in a Bus Lane (Bus Gate), Guild Street
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 28, 2023, 5:38 pm
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--- Quote from: ev2021 link ---
>
> I had thought the prohibition of motor vehicles might be
incorrect as Wapping Street continues to Guild Street according
to TomTom maps. Google maps show it changes to Carmelite Street
so it is probably ok.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm not sure how Wapping Street or Carmelite Street have
anything to do with it?
This is the Ordnance Survey map:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/uBlqMtb.png
As you've correctly identified the restriction is “The eastbound
carriageway, between its junctions with Stirling Street and
Exchange Street”, so I'm not sure how the location of Wapping
Street or Carmelite Street comes into it.
As for the fact that one of the bus gates might not have been
implemented, I'm not sure that is lawful (if that is indeed what
happened) but I also don't think that would give you a defence.
The only real defect I can see with the notice is that it
wrongly states that if you make representations you forego the
discount: this is nonsense, if you make representation and get a
prompt response before the 14 days are up, you still have the
legal right to the 50% discount. Or you might make
representations, then think better of it and seek to pay the 50%
rate before the 14 days are up. By suggesting that merely making
representations means you lose the right to the discount, the
PCN is misleading.
There is also a strategy of last resort which I've described
here
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/l-b-waltham-forest-50r-performing-a-prohibited-turn/msg7581/#msg7581.
I can't see any other arguable grounds, so those are
realistically the options you can pursue.
In any event don't send representations without showing us a
draft first.
#Post#: 11542--------------------------------------------------
Re: Aberdeen, Being in a Bus Lane (Bus Gate), Guild Street
DIR By: ev2021
Date: November 29, 2023, 10:28 am
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Thanks for the feedback [member=1]cp8759[/member].
I turned on to Guild Street from the junction with Carmelite
Street (junction below “TCB” on the map you have posted). This
is in the image in the original post. The sign on this corner
appears to be the only warning of the bus gate ahead. I’d argue
that there is too much going on at this junction to reusable be
expected to take this information in too. As mentioned I don’t
recall seeing this sign at all.
Ok, is there no milage in the signage being unclear / confusing?
As mentioned, the council is changing the signs to include
yellow backing boards on the bus gate signs to make them stand
out / more visible, coloured road surfacing and adding three
advanced directional signs. This is what hacks me off
particularly since the council have announced they are doing
this before the grace period ended. Based on their data that so
many people were getting caught out. Seems unfair and they could
(or should) have extended the grace period until the signage was
upgraded.
Is the point around the representations and forgoing the
discount not enough to challenge the validity of the PCN? Should
I make a representation and think better of it and see if they
will allow me to make the reduced payment?
#Post#: 11603--------------------------------------------------
Re: Aberdeen, Being in a Bus Lane (Bus Gate), Guild Street
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 29, 2023, 5:40 pm
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CP8759 is right about your absolute right to pay the discount at
any time up to the end of the discount period even if you have
submitted reps and not yet received a reply. This situation
arose some years ago when bus lanes started being enforced in
England. Nottingham City Council also stated on their PCNs that
if you submitted representations, you forgo the discount. In
this case, despite not having had a response, the appellant went
to pay within the discount period and couldn't because
Nottingham's computer system was not programmed correctly to
reflect the law. The appellant appealed to the Traffic Penalty
Tribunal and won his case.
So what I suggest you do is submit representations on the basis
of the poor signage, pointing out the council are no engaged in
improvements due to many complaints. Don't mention the discount
issue, but within the discount period, go onto their PCN payment
pages and see if it lets you pay the PCN. If it doesn't you've
got them over a barrel, although you'll have to take them to the
Scottish adjudicators to put your case.
#Post#: 11610--------------------------------------------------
Re: Aberdeen, Being in a Bus Lane (Bus Gate), Guild Street
DIR By: lexy
Date: November 29, 2023, 10:19 pm
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I know this junction well - I drive through it every weekend to
get to one of my DJing gigs.
You can't see the signs on Google Street View because this is a
new restriction, but I don't think the inadequate signage
argument is going to work. Credit where credit is due, Aberdeen
have actually done a pretty good job of it.
You have:
- Blue 'bus taxi cycle only' signs at the start of the bus lane
- Warning signs at the junction just before you turn into Guild
Street, saying 'bus lane ahead'
- "No motor vehicles except for access" signs at the junction
just before you turn into Guild Street, because there's a side
street just before the bus lane that can only be accessed that
way (Stirling Street)
- An advance warning sign showing the left lane is "buses and
access only" on the one way system, at the corner before the
Guild Street junction
- An advance warning sign at the junction before that, on
Denburn Road, showing the left lane is for "buses and access
only"
It's also worth noting - the bus lanes that are being improved
in Aberdeen don't include this one - it has already been done.
It's the ones on Union Street. The road is being narrowed and
pedestrian crossing islands added.
#Post#: 11701--------------------------------------------------
Re: Aberdeen, Being in a Bus Lane (Bus Gate), Guild Street
DIR By: Daim456
Date: December 1, 2023, 9:00 am
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This may not help with your case.
But if in future you decide to drive into Aberdeen. You may look
at this link to see where the bus gates are.
HTML https://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/services/roads-transport-and-parking/bus-lanes-and-bus-gates
#Post#: 12684--------------------------------------------------
Re: Aberdeen, Being in a Bus Lane (Bus Gate), Guild Street
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: December 19, 2023, 10:06 am
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Traffic order here:
HTML https://consultation.aberdeencity.gov.uk/operations/citycentre-experimental-tro-2023/user_uploads/citycentre_trafficmanagement_experimentalorder_july23_redacted.pdf
[member=1013]ev2021[/member] so what did you do in the end?
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