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#Post#: 11127--------------------------------------------------
Ealing - Parked in Residents Bay without a Valid Permit - 12r
DIR By: twigtwig
Date: November 24, 2023, 4:33 pm
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Hello all. I received a parking ticket two days ago. I thought I
had renewed my permit, but the payment did not go through. I
spoke to the council parking department yesterday to see what
was going on and to re-renew the permit. They admitted that
there were faults with the payment processing service in
September when I was trying to renew, and that I should be able
to just submit an appeal showing I did have a permit, I had
tried to renew it and that this was a known issue.
I submitted this to them as an appeal, but have just received a
rejection.
Copy of ticket, informal appeal and rejection letter attached
here.
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/sh/na2woyab2dvnatp/AACFyo-hoEaN6xlEGMqnGk6ja?dl=0
I would be interested to know if this ticket is contestable. I
think it could well be - I looked at the code used for the
offence - which is 12r
'Code description: Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking
place or zone without either clearly displaying a valid permit
or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or
without payment of the parking charge.'
However, I notice in the Civil Enforcement Officers Handbook
V2a, it suggests 'If a previously valid permit has expired then
code 19 should be issued.'
Code 19 wording.
'Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone
either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and
display ticket - or after the expiry of paid for time.'
Please advise, do you think these would be suitable grounds for
appeal?
#Post#: 11164--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - Parked in Residents Bay without a Valid Permit -
12r
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 25, 2023, 6:05 am
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You're not at 'appeal', the Notice to Owner stage awaits first.
Could we have a simple timeline pl:
Previous permit expired on:
Reminder email from council to renew permit sent on:
Your attempt to renew permit on:
Your new permit is effective from:
PCN issued on:
Re-offered discount expires: 8 Dec.
Then we can overlay this with what the council's website says
about the renewal process e.g. how is a successful transaction
indicated if at all, is this an open or closed-loop process,
what obligations fall to the motorist and which to the council
etc.
Then another layer of whether you continued to park in local and
applicable resident's bays without issue for the period from
expiry of previous permit to date of PCN, pl confirm.
#Post#: 11167--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - Parked in Residents Bay without a Valid Permit -
12r
DIR By: twigtwig
Date: November 25, 2023, 6:34 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
>
> You're not at 'appeal', the Notice to Owner stage awaits
first.
>
> Could we have a simple timeline pl:
>
> Previous permit expired on:
> Reminder email from council to renew permit sent on:
> Your attempt to renew permit on:
> Your new permit is effective from:
> PCN issued on:
> Re-offered discount expires: 8 Dec.
>
>
> Then we can overlay this with what the council's website says
about the renewal process e.g. how is a successful transaction
indicated if at all, is this an open or closed-loop process,
what obligations fall to the motorist and which to the council
etc.
>
> Then another layer of whether you continued to park in local
and applicable resident's bays without issue for the period from
expiry of previous permit to date of PCN, pl confirm.
>
--- End Quote ---
Good afternoon HC Anderson. Thank you for your message.
Previous permit expired on: 18/10/2023
Reminder email from council to renew permit sent on: 21/09/2023
Your attempt to renew permit on: 13/09/2023
Your new permit is effective from:23/11/2023
PCN issued on: 22/11/2023
Re-offered discount expires: 8 Dec.
I had a calendar reminder that the permit expired, so tried to
renew in the renewal window, but before the automated email was
sent out. It looked like the transaction went through - I
assumed it had. I continued to park in the residents bay outside
my house, like I have done for the last 12 months. The first
(and only) ticket for having no valid permit was issued on
22/11. I noticed this that evening, called the Council Parking
Department on 23/11 first thing, and I was advised that there
was an issue with their payment system not taking payments in
the month of September, which could have caused the issue with
payment/renewal.
#Post#: 11176--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - Parked in Residents Bay without a Valid Permit -
12r
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 25, 2023, 7:36 am
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It would be ab abuse of process for the council to persue this
PCN, as it as their own IT system that appeared to take your
money and didn't.
#Post#: 11180--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - Parked in Residents Bay without a Valid Permit -
12r
DIR By: twigtwig
Date: November 25, 2023, 8:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> It would be ab abuse of process for the council to persue this
PCN, as it as their own IT system that appeared to take your
money and didn't.
>
--- End Quote ---
I do agree Incandescent - and so did the telephone operator who
renewed the permit with me - so I was surprised that they
rejected this and so quickly as well!
My thought process is to wait for a NTO - and submit a formal
challenge. Hopefully this will result in the penalty being
cancelled. If not then the discount should be re-offered
correct?
If rejected, I could take this to the London Tribunal, who would
be able to provide an impartial hearing.
My grounds for appeal would be:
-I was led to believe that I had renewed the permit. The
operator in the parking department said that there was an error
with the payment processing system which did result in some
payments not being taken.
-The code is incorrectly listed - the CEO has listed a code 12r
- Code description: Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking
place or zone without either clearly displaying a valid permit
or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or
without payment of the parking charge. The Civil Enforcement
Officers Handbook V2a, suggests 'If a previously valid permit
has expired then code 19 should be issued.'
'Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone
either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and
display ticket - or after the expiry of paid for time.'
Do you think that there is anything else that I am missing? What
would those who have experience in this area suggest the odds of
having the ticket overturned would be?
Thank you.
#Post#: 11227--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - Parked in Residents Bay without a Valid Permit -
12r
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 25, 2023, 12:28 pm
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--- Quote from: twigtwig link ---
>
> I noticed this that evening, called the Council Parking
Department on 23/11 first thing, and I was advised that there
was an issue with their payment system not taking payments in
the month of September, which could have caused the issue with
payment/renewal.
>
--- End Quote ---
Did you get that in writing?
If not, call back and ask them to put in in writing to you.
--- Quote from: twigtwig link ---
>
> What would those who have experience in this area suggest the
odds of having the ticket overturned would be?
>
--- End Quote ---
If you can prove what happened, I'd say almost 100%.
But what evidence do you have about your permit renewal, did you
get a confirmation email? Or do you have any screenshots?
#Post#: 11233--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - Parked in Residents Bay without a Valid Permit -
12r
DIR By: twigtwig
Date: November 25, 2023, 1:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [quote author=twigtwig link=topic=1025.msg11167#msg11167
date=1700915649]
> I noticed this that evening, called the Council Parking
Department on 23/11 first thing, and I was advised that there
was an issue with their payment system not taking payments in
the month of September, which could have caused the issue with
payment/renewal.
>
--- End Quote ---
Did you get that in writing?
If not, call back and ask them to put in in writing to you.
--- Quote from: twigtwig link ---
>
> What would those who have experience in this area suggest the
odds of having the ticket overturned would be?
>
--- End Quote ---
If you can prove what happened, I'd say almost 100%.
But what evidence do you have about your permit renewal, did you
get a confirmation email? Or do you have any screenshots?
[/quote]
Hello CP! I did not get that in writing - it was discussed on
the telephone. The person I spoke to did say that they'd make a
note of it, so I will telephone back on Monday and ask them to
reply to that so that I have it in writing.
With regard to the renewal of the permit, I have the transaction
on my Monzo bank account. It says 'Declined', next to it - which
I didn't notice to be honest - I went ahead and completed the
renewal forms, and approved the transaction on my phone and it
looked as if it all went ahead. I'll check if I had a
confirmation email. However there was clearly a problem
somewhere - as the payment wasn't taken and the permit wasn't
renewed. It was not due to lack of funds - as other transactions
were processed that day, and my balance is in credit.
However, in their rejection, the council have said that it is on
the motorist to check that they have a valid permit. However - I
can prove that I did at least try to renew it prior to it's
expiry.
With regards to my second point, about the incorrect charge code
(12 vs 19) - do you think this too would be grounds for
cancellation of the ticket?
Thank you all.
#Post#: 11293--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - Parked in Residents Bay without a Valid Permit -
12r
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 26, 2023, 8:04 am
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Well if you had some sort of confirmation from the council that
the permit had been renewed, I don't see how there can be any
obligation to carry out any further checks, after all how often
should you check? Every day? Every hour? Where would you draw
the line?
If you had something saying the permit had been renewed, that's
the end of the matter as far as I can see.
As for the 12 vs 19 issue, it's worth arguing but it's one of
those things that could go either way, depending on the
adjudicator on the day.
#Post#: 11335--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - Parked in Residents Bay without a Valid Permit -
12r
DIR By: twigtwig
Date: November 26, 2023, 3:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello CP,
That is the crux of the issue. I did not have anything from the
council saying the payment was processed I don't think. I
renewed on the website, approved teh transaction on my phone and
was taken to a confirmation page, which said that my permit had
been renewed.
I saw there was a transaction on my bank account.
However, when investigating the transaction says 'declined'.
When I spoke to the person at the council, they said that there
was a bug in their payment system, which meant that some
transaction etc did not complete, so no money was taken from my
account.
Please see screenshot of the transaction from my Monzo account.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 11382--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ealing - Parked in Residents Bay without a Valid Permit -
12r
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 27, 2023, 12:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: twigtwig link ---
>
> When I spoke to the person at the council, they said that
there was a bug in their payment system, which meant that some
transaction etc did not complete, so no money was taken from my
account.
>
--- End Quote ---
If this can be proven then the case is open and shut, as the
council are responsible for any bugs in their system. So you
need to call the council back and try and get this confirmed in
writing.
We could go down the Freedom of Information route, but that
could take weeks if not months, while if you get someone to drop
you an email we could get what we need in a couple of days.
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