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#Post#: 11027--------------------------------------------------
TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route
or Clearway)
DIR By: larbiamma@gmail.com
Date: November 23, 2023, 10:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi All
I hope you are all doing well,
I recently received a TFL PCN due to stopping in a Red route and
I hope you can help me understand what options are available to
me to appeal the penalty if there are any.
Summary of Contravention:
-Alleged Contravention: 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red
route or clearway)
-Contravention Location: O/S 57-73 LEE HIGH ROAD SE 13
-Contravention Date: On 10/11/2023 at 11:06.
"The contravention was seen and recorded by camera Operator
number 139 who was observing real-time pictures from an approved
device at the time stated and has been recorded on digital
storage media"
I stopped to collect com cakes from a cake shop outside:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/Go4Y7HcTGDP84sQ26
The sign states: No stopping Mon-Sat 7am - 7pm Except 10am-4pm
Loading Only
1- I stopped to collect cakes for my family so it wasn't
business reason, but I thought loading does not necessarily mean
business loading only.
2- I stopped within the 10am-4pm window (11:06 to be precise)
3- I may have overstayed the 20 min limits as the cakes were not
ready
4- I was in my car waiting for most of the time I was there.
the PCN was issued by TFL CCTV and sent to me in the post, there
is no mention of the Council.
I have seen some similar topics in the forum and it seems that
these penalties were deemed illegal, and are currently under
review, so surprised they are still issuing them.
Is there any hope in fighting this or do I just lump it and pay
up?
Many thanks for your valuable advice/assistance with the matter
Kind regards
HTML https://i.imgur.com/xoJpMiU.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/R8n3OCB.png
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 11047--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red
Route or Clearway)
DIR By: Daim456
Date: November 23, 2023, 4:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: larbiamma@gmail.com link ---
>
>
>
> 1- I stopped to collect cakes for my family so it wasn't
business reason, but I thought loading does not necessarily mean
business loading only.
> 2- I stopped within the 10am-4pm window (11:06 to be precise)
> 3- I may have overstayed the 20 min limits as the cakes were
not ready
> 4- I was in my car waiting for most of the time I was there.
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
--- End Quote ---
You can phone TfL to send the DVD video in the post and ask them
to put this PCN on hold.
The loading can be used for personal reasons, it does not have
to be done by business.
As you said you were in your car waiting for the cake to be
ready but that was not loading. The loading must be continously
and you must move your car once the loading was done but it
looks like you were not loading at all.
You could ask them for discretion.
#Post#: 11174--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red
Route or Clearway)
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 25, 2023, 7:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=999]larbiamma@gmail.com[/member] you need to do two
things:
1) Call TFL on 0343 222 3333 and ask for the video, they will
send a DVD in the post and put the penalty on hold while you
wait. Until we know what the video shows, we don't know the
strength of TFL's case.
2) Send this to foi@tfl.gov.uk:
[indent]
Dear Transport for London,
There is a CCTV camera outside 85-87 Lee High Rd, London, SE13
5NS, which is visible here:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/sxDmH5cWax5m6Yyh9
I would like to request the make and model of the camera please.
Also please provide any documentation confirming the make and
model of the camera.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
Assuming you do this before 5 pm on Monday, put a reminder in
your calendar to chase up TFL for an FOI response on 28
December.
#Post#: 11358--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red
Route or Clearway)
DIR By: larbiamma@gmail.com
Date: November 27, 2023, 5:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
many thanks [member=1]cp8759[/member]
I have actioned the instructions above, and the penalty has been
put on hold
Appreciate your help and guidance
Can I please ask if there is a way to change my username? I
checked and it looks like I may need to delete the profile and
create a new one, which I would assume would also need a new
thread/topic .
Thank you
#Post#: 12982--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red
Route or Clearway)
DIR By: larbiamma@gmail.com
Date: December 27, 2023, 6:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi
I hope you had a great christmas
I have recieved a response from TFL rearding the request to
provide details about the camera used under FOI right.
Unfortunately they rejected the request under Regulation
12(4)(b) of the EIR on the basis that it is ‘manifestly
unreasonable’; see below the full response
"TfL Ref: FOI-3065-2324
Thank you for your request received by Transport for London
(TfL) on 27 November 2023 asking for information about a CCTV
camera outside Lee High Road.
Your request will be processed in accordance with the
requirements of the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act and our
information access policy.
A response will be sent to you by 27 December 2023. We publish a
substantial range of information on our website on subjects
including operational performance, contracts, expenditure,
journey data, governance and our financial performance. This
includes data which is frequently asked for in FOI requests or
other public queries. Please check
HTML http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/
to see if this
helps you.
We will publish anonymised versions of requests and responses on
the www.tfl.gov.uk website. We will not publish your name and we
will send a copy of the response to you before it is published
on our website.
In the meantime, if you would like to discuss this matter
further, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Yours sincerely,
Mary Abidakun
FOI Case Officer
FOI Case Management Team
General Counsel
Transport for London
"
#Post#: 13313--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red
Route or Clearway)
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: January 4, 2024, 6:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=999]MLA_81[/member] I don't think you've posted the FOI
response, that looks like the acknowledgment email?
#Post#: 13315--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red
Route or Clearway)
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: January 5, 2024, 3:33 am
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+1.
A response will be sent to you by 27 December 2023.
OP, this response pl.
#Post#: 13323--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red
Route or Clearway)
DIR By: larbiamma@gmail.com
Date: January 5, 2024, 8:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Team
Apologies, see below the response
TfL Ref: FOI-3065-2324
Thank you for your request received by Transport for London
(TfL) on 27 November 2023 asking for information about a CCTV
camera outside Lee High Road.
Your request has been considered in accordance with the
requirements of the Environmental Information Regulations (EIR)
and our information access policy. I can confirm we hold the
information you require.
However, your request is being refused under Regulation 12(4)(b)
of the EIR on the basis that it is ‘manifestly unreasonable’.
Please see the rationale set out below.
We have received a large number of requests from different
applicants asking for the exact same information in respect of
different cameras. TfL has been refusing to release any
information that would allow any of our ‘Digital Traffic
Enforcement System’ cameras to be identified given the
widespread instances of vandalism that some of these cameras
have been subject to since the expansion of the Ultra Low
Emission Zone (ULEZ). The rationale for this is as set out under
a previous request for similar information, published on our
website here:
HTML https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0970-2324
If the exceptions cited in the reply above were only ever
applied to requests for information about the ANPR cameras used
to enforce ULEZ, but not other cameras on the road network
operated by TfL, then that would defeat the purpose of the
exceptions applying – i.e. if that were the approach, then any
time a request was refused then this would, in effect, identify
our ANPR cameras. Therefore, the exceptions apply to all of our
road camera infrastructure, so that the specific cameras used to
enforce ULEZ cannot be distinguished from other cameras via FOI
/ EIR requests.
The use of the exceptions cited in the reply above have been
challenged under Internal Review by other applicants, and the
result of those reviews were that the use of the exceptions were
upheld. In turn, an applicant has subsequently lodged an appeal
on three separate occasions with the Information Commissioner’s
Office (ICO) which is currently being considered by that body.
The ICO will determine whether or not it agrees with TfL’s
reliance on these exceptions. In the meantime, TfL stands by its
use of the exceptions.
Given the above, TfL now considers that any current and future
requests asking for information on the make and models of our
roadside cameras be exempted as ‘manifestly unreasonable’. There
is no public benefit in rehearsing the same arguments that are
already before the ICO. As such, we believe that the current
series of requests, which have an identical template-style
wording and therefore appear to be part of a co-ordinated
campaign, are ‘manifestly unreasonable’ because they represent:
Frequent or overlapping requests
Unreasonable persistence on matters which have either been
resolved or are already before the Information Commissioner
Appear to lack serious purpose or value
Appear designed to cause disruption and disproportionate burden
We do not believe that the greater public interest is served by
TfL considering each such case on an individual basis while the
matter remains before the ICO.
Please see the attached information sheet for details of your
right to appeal.
Yours sincerely,
#Post#: 13326--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red
Route or Clearway)
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: January 5, 2024, 9:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
What utter nonsense:
TfL has been refusing to release any information that would
allow any of our ‘Digital Traffic Enforcement System’ cameras to
be identified....
...in response to:
There is a CCTV camera outside 85-87 Lee High Rd, London, SE13
5NS, which is visible here:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/sxDmH5cWax5m6Yyh9
I think the 'allowing ....cameras to be identified..cat is
already out of the bag and sitting on top of a post situated
outside 85-87 Lee High Road!
#Post#: 13459--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red
Route or Clearway)
DIR By: larbiamma@gmail.com
Date: January 8, 2024, 9:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I gather that this is a dead end from an FOI perspective, but
yet to receive the footage of the infraction. Should I chase
them or just wait?
do you know if they notify me when they remove the hold on the
PCN?
Many thanks
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