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#Post#: 14445--------------------------------------------------
Binary
By: Alharacas Date: April 16, 2019, 4:47 am
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"So, please give me an honest answer, Alharacas. Do you think I
could apply for jobs advertised for German speakers now? Would I
survive a job interview in German?"
I consider the question carefully and reply, "It would depend on
the job. If you were trying to sell me really expensive
equipment or software, and for some reason we couldn't switch to
English, perhaps because I didn't speak it that well myself, I'd
demand flawless German. But for an in-house job? Of course! Your
German's fine. We talk about a really wide range of subjects,
you and I, and you understand me when I speak at normal speed. I
don't have to dumb down my German, either. So, yes, by all
means. Go for it."
Fast forward to our next conversation several weeks later. My
language partner is visibly furious. "It turns out you need to
speak German at a C2 level if you want to get hired by a German
company where not everybody speaks English."
I burst out laughing. "Then they won't be able to fill any
vacancies, ever. There simply aren't very many native speakers
who speak German at C2 level, you know."
He gives me a strained smile. "I was talking to a head hunter
today. The interview was in German. At the end, he said to me
'Well, you know, they're looking for people who speak German.
I'm sorry, but you don't qualify.' So, I asked the guy at which
level I'd have to speak German in order to qualify. C1? C2? He
thought about it a little and said 'B2, I guess.' I said 'But
that is my German level.' And then he just shrugged." My
language partner draws breath. "Apparently, Germans recognize
that English is spoken at various levels. And a B2 is fine for a
job requiring no German at all. But for German, it's binary. You
either speak it - or you don't."
I tell the story to a friend who works at a company where they
speak only English at work, simply because it's the only
language everybody understands. My friend says "Better tell him
not to try again. Not before his German's a lot better, anyway.
He wouldn't get the salary he's accustomed to, either. The
people doing the hiring tend to see a correlation between
fluency and qualifications."
I stare at him. "Are you seriously telling me he'd be seen as
less qualified because his German isn't perfect? Even though
people in his field are in such high demand, and he's fluent in
several other languages, apart from English and his native
language?"
He shrugs. "Yes. That's what it's like."
If you've managed to read this far - what is it like in your
country? At which level would somebody have to speak your native
language in order to get hired for a job other than cleaning or
picking fruit? Are people automatically considered to be less
qualified, perhaps even less intelligent if they aren't fluent
in your native language?
Edit: I'd also be happy to hear about this from a language
learner's perspective. What do people say to you when they hear
you're learning their language? Are they encouraging? Helpful?
Pessimistic? Surprised?
#Post#: 14446--------------------------------------------------
Re: Binary
By: Nikola Date: April 16, 2019, 6:40 am
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It must be really frustrating. I don't know how it works here
when it comes to big companies who can be picky, although one of
my students works for a Mexican company based in Prague. She's
Czech but she needs English to be able to communicate with her
colleagues who only speak Spanish and English so I suppose even
people with bad Czech stand a chance. I can ask her. You can
definitely find a less intellectually demanding job if you don't
speak Czech very well, as long as you are good at it or willing
to work for cheap (not expecting your employer to pay health
insurance for you or even employ you legally is often an
advantage). That said, you have to bear in mind that most people
looking for such jobs here come from Ukraine and other Slavic
countries so there's always some understanding that also
improves over time. Czech people who went to school before 1989
studied Russian so they can switch to Russian when needed. We're
talking about jobs where your understanding is more important
than your being able to express yourself because you're supposed
to follow instructions and some employers probably even prefer
it if you can't talk back. So our approach is as cynical as
ourselves, I suppose.
#Post#: 14452--------------------------------------------------
Re: Binary
By: Truman Overby Date: April 16, 2019, 9:35 am
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First of all, I was relieved to see that this was not about the
binary/non-binary sex orientation debate.
As to the topic at hand, I'll never work in Georgia
{საქართველ
ო,
sakartvelo} so I don't know what level of Georgian language
{ქართული
ენა, kartuli ena} one would need in order to
secure employment. From what I know though, native English
speakers are practically worshiped in Georgia. Which probably
accounts for my interest in the people.
Georgians are flabbergasted and amused and maybe slightly
delighted that anyone would bother to learn their language. It's
inconceivable to them that anyone, except a Georgian, would have
any desire to learn their language. Let alone actually make an
effort to learn it.
I'm a sucker for the offbeat, odd, and useless, so it's perfect
for me.
#Post#: 14454--------------------------------------------------
Re: Binary
By: Alharacas Date: April 16, 2019, 10:59 am
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For one thing - and yes, I know how grandmotherly, even trite
this is going to sound - I don't believe there is such a thing
as learning something "useless", except perhaps for playing air
guitar.
For another, I'm somewhat envious of your choice, Jerry. How
nice for you to surprise and delight people by learning their
language! What a contrast to being viewed rather warily by the
majority of native speakers, because, you know, theirs being
such an intricate and basically un-learnable language, and of
course, at the same time such a priceless national treasure,
you're sure to terminally disfigure this precious heirloom by
your clumsy and inaccurate attempts at speaking it. (Yes, I did
have one particular language in mind while I was writing this
short rant, but actually, it applies to several languages.)
#Post#: 14456--------------------------------------------------
Re: Binary
By: NealC Date: April 16, 2019, 11:33 am
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French or Arabic?
#Post#: 14457--------------------------------------------------
Re: Binary
By: Truman Overby Date: April 16, 2019, 11:45 am
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I also know a little Mengrelian. Very little.
#Post#: 14458--------------------------------------------------
Re: Binary
By: SHL Date: April 16, 2019, 11:52 am
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I think in the US the bar is set pretty low for hiring. If
people understand what you are talking about, I don‘t think
people pay much attention to accents, grammatical
expressions/oddities, even if a native speakers would never use
a particular expression his/herself. For the most part I think
this is likely due to most Americans not being aware of proper
English grammar anyway, because they never learned it and/or
never think about it or care.
I listened to a YouTube clips in German involving the
Germanwings flight from 2015 where the co-pilot flew into plane
into the ground in France killing everyone. He was suicidal and
it was never detected. The documentary spoke about his
background and training and I could overhear a native German
speaker, a Lufthansa employee, speaking English (for some
reason) in the back behind with overdubbed German (not sure why
this was but the documentary was in German). Although the
speaker‘s English was good and would never present a problem in
hiring him for probably any job, his words were clearly not
always native-sounding. He was speaking of the pilot screening
before they start training and how they have to undergo physical
and psychological exams and English language exams before even
being considered for training. The speaker, though his English
was fine, used a phrase no native would use. He said, with an
accent, „We want to see if you fit into the Lufthansa world.“
It‘s an intelligible sentence, and no one would say anything
about it, but I would re-phrase it as „we want to see if you are
a good fit for Lufthansa“ for „for the company“. No one would
say „the Lufthansa world.“ That’s a phrase I’ve never heard
before or anything like it. What‘s a „Lufthansa world?“ I can‘t
really say it‘s wrong but just sounds weird.
The suicidal pilot‘s English language medical record was surely
written by a non-native, because the English, though good, just
didn‘t sound native —In it, the author writes: „ In the case of
Mr. Lubitz modified living conditions caused the onset of a
depressive Episode „. (I imagine the author was referring to a
move to Phoenix but the sentence is fine.) But then the next
sentences: „By a drug therapy (sic) and a psychotherapeutic
treatment (sic), which enabled him to develop sufficient
resources for getting on with similar situations in the future
(sic)..“ was clearly odd. To improve the sentence I would say „
By drug and psychotherapeutic treatment (the „a“ in „a drug
therapy“ and „a psychotherapeutic treatment“ are redundant and
should be left out), and the phrase „ develop sufficient
resources for getting on with similar situations in the future“
is just weird sounding and awkward. It‘s grammatically
incorrect. I have never heard the phrase, „develop resources for
getting on“ before, but American employers wouldn’t care or
downgrade it because it‘s intelligible. A better sentence would
have been, „allow Mr. Lubitz to deal with (or handle) similar
situations in the future.“ The phrase „get on with a situation“
is just a foreign phrase, and I‘m not sure what the writer’s
native language was.
So again, I‘d say in the US, in the job market, employers are
more concerned about just being able communicate and understand
an employee rather than the person speaking at a C2 level unless
the job involves teaching English.
#Post#: 14459--------------------------------------------------
Re: Binary
By: Truman Overby Date: April 16, 2019, 12:06 pm
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[quote author=SHL link=topic=971.msg14458#msg14458
date=1555433559]
So again, I‘d say in the US, in the job market, employers are
more concerned about just being able communicate and understand
an employee rather than the person speaking at a C2 level unless
the job involves teaching English.
[/quote]
Yeah, you'll find lots of lawyers who are very deficient in
English grammar. :o
#Post#: 14460--------------------------------------------------
Re: Binary
By: SHL Date: April 16, 2019, 12:14 pm
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I did want to add that it, of course, matters, what sort of work
you are applying for. Airline pilots need to learn airport tower
communication language, which of course would cause native
speakers trouble anyway, so that‘s a very specialized type
communications. I have no idea what general English an average
non-English speaking speaking pilot needs to master beyond
specialized tower communication skills. Beyond that, it might be
a fairly rudimentary level.
Like Alharacas said, it really should be job-dependent. If it‘s
just picking fruit in the field you hardly need any language
skills for that. If it‘s high-tech office work, I can see that
requiring some reasonably high level but I wouldn‘t think
perfection would be demanded.
If the job requires high level skills, I can understand that,
like teaching.
We especially have a problem with companies farming out
telephone customer service jobs to foreign countries (for credit
card companies, telecommunication companies) and one would think
that the skill levels would have to be high, but they are not.
You might try calling one of the 24-hour customer service lines
and, after hours, you are likely to be talking with someone in
India or the Philippines, and it‘s often pretty hard to
understand these folks. So there they should use people with c2
level skills but they‘d be hard pressed to find them.
#Post#: 14461--------------------------------------------------
Re: Binary
By: SHL Date: April 16, 2019, 12:16 pm
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[quote author=Keep America Great!
link=topic=971.msg14459#msg14459 date=1555434363]
[quote author=SHL link=topic=971.msg14458#msg14458
date=1555433559]
So again, I‘d say in the US, in the job market, employers are
more concerned about just being able communicate and understand
an employee rather than the person speaking at a C2 level unless
the job involves teaching English.
[/quote]
Yeah, you'll find lots of lawyers who are very deficient in
English grammar. :o
[/quote]
I‘ve noticed it more with doctors than lawyers.
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