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#Post#: 13706--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: Truman Overby Date: March 26, 2019, 2:42 pm
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[quote author=SHL link=topic=918.msg13705#msg13705
date=1553628893]
Thank you Chizuko for the upvote. Neal and Jerry never give me
these (not too many other people do either, so yours might the
first) ;D
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure I gave you one, once.
#Post#: 13708--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: NealC Date: March 26, 2019, 3:12 pm
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There, I upped Jerry's vote. Steve, up yours too.
#Post#: 13722--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: Nikola Date: March 26, 2019, 6:01 pm
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Steve, let me address some issues because I feel like we're
stuck in a loop here.
1. The video. I don't know if you read any of the comments in
this thread but a lot of time and effort went into analysing the
video, pointing out what was wrong with it and establishing what
it really should have been about. No one who has read these
comments would feel the need to stress that it's not the most
helpful resource in the world. If I hadn't found it
questionable, I wouldn't have posted it in the first place.
Neal was the first one to confirm that there were times when the
"try to" and "try doing" sentences were interchangeable. He also
felt that the teacher was deliberately choosing a limited range
of examples to make her argument stronger. Did you read his
comment? SuKi explained that in some contexts there was no real
difference, while in others, one was more preferable than other.
We discussed this at length and looked at different examples. If
you have anything to say about the examples we used, please do
so because I'm always interested to know whether the things I've
learnt sound natural in other English-speaking countries as well
as in the UK.
2. What learners should or shouldn't learn. This is very
individual, and, as I expressed in my comment yesterday, not
something one person should decide for everyone. Some people are
genuinely interested in taking exams, quite many actually. Some
people want to be able to read and write academic papers,
existentialist novels, poems, what have you. And, of course,
some just want to be able to communicate but there are no
universal resources that would work for everyone, nor can you
expect every single teacher to create those. A good teacher
teaches students what's relevant to them and not what's relevant
to "the majority who aim low".
3. About colloquial language. I am glad that we're embracing
colloquial language here. I teach my students both standard and
common Czech (if they say they want it this way) because using
the wrong style at the wrong time can have all sorts of negative
consequences. However, if you're using your target language and
you overdo it (your language is "too colloquial"), you make
yourself sound totally ridiculous. Remember all the "gonna" and
"wanna" posts on italki? I don't think that plain, textbook-like
black-and-white English could ever be source of this much
embarrassment. Not everything you say, as a native speaker, will
sound the same if I say it.
#Post#: 13727--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: NealC Date: March 26, 2019, 8:25 pm
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Steve, what is with all the numbers, are you practicing your
dance steps?
Slow, slow, quick quick...
#Post#: 13728--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: SHL Date: March 26, 2019, 8:55 pm
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No Neal. Sorry about all that. There`s no way I know how to
delete mistaken posts. The modify button disappeared on all my
posts and I wanted to get rid of one by just deleting the
content that got mistakenly posted. But, if you delete the
content of a post, it won`t let you re-post anything without
some numeral or something in there. I`m having the strangest
trouble with my iPad. Maybe I should pull an Alex Jones and
adopt a conspiracy theory, like the California State Bar
infected my iPad with a strange „political correctness virus“
after I had to answer all those strange demographic questions to
renew my membership? Like that one about the gender, with those
5 or 6 choices? I expected 3- female, male, and then trans.
Okay, no problem. Then I got these alternatives like „2-X“,
„Undefined/non-Conformist/Non-Binary“ , and then that
„other....please specify“ category? I had a good laugh at work
today with an attorney friend of mine about this. He renewed
early and didn`t have to take this survey. He couldn`t believe
it either, like the whole State has gone off the deep end. He
said, „$500 a year and that´s where our money goes, to pay
people to write up stuff like that?“ How can you be „gender
non-conformist?“ I guess that´s like formally objecting to your
gender? I don`t get it ???
#Post#: 13729--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: SHL Date: March 26, 2019, 9:17 pm
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Nikola,
Like I told Neal, sorry for all these weird computer problems
I`ve been having. I think we are time-limited in modifying posts
where you can only modify them for so long after they are
posted.
Anyway, I think your question was a good one, and all the advice
you got was great. You can`t beat Suki`s advice, especially
about BrEnglish, and everyone else`s was good too.
You mentioned teaching Czech. I don`t know if you have a
language authority like Duden in Czech, but if you do I`m sure
it helps. I haven`t looked at any of the English grammar books
or dictionaries so I don`t know what`s out there. But, it is
nice having one authority to go to that tells you how each word
or verb is categorized, like official (governmental sounding),
elevated, standard, colloquial, salopp (causal I guess) or
teenager language. Not disagreeing with anyone`s advice, I
think the middle road is the best for me (either standard,
colloquial or salopp). Teaching the standard and colloquial
side-by-side sounds like a good approach, with everyone deciding
what his or her needs are in the language.
#Post#: 13732--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: Nikola Date: March 27, 2019, 5:46 am
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[quote author=SHL link=topic=918.msg13729#msg13729
date=1553653038]
You mentioned teaching Czech. I don`t know if you have a
language authority like Duden in Czech, but if you do I`m sure
it helps. I haven`t looked at any of the English grammar books
or dictionaries so I don`t know what`s out there.[/quote]
Yes, we do have exactly one authority that is in charge of all
this:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_the_Czech_Language
It's very helpful because in Czech, so much can go wrong (not
saying Czech is harder than other languages, it's just... I'd
say peculiar), few people know how to use it correctly and the
majority of people know where to find the answer if they care
enough to do so. This is obviously a lot easier in a country of
10 million than it would be for all the countries scattered
around the world that speak English and use it their way.
Here's one of many lists of English grammar resources if you
feel like looking into it:
HTML https://www.grammarly.com/blog/10-best-grammar-resources-for-professionals/<br
/>There are both British and American resources there. I tend to
use the Cambridge Dictionary a lot
HTML https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/
It's not just
British English. You can try typing in any "American" expression
and it will probably know it and tell you whether it's formal,
informal, offensive etc.
#Post#: 13745--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: SHL Date: March 27, 2019, 2:29 pm
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[quote author=Nikola link=topic=918.msg13732#msg13732
date=1553683572]
[quote author=SHL link=topic=918.msg13729#msg13729
date=1553653038]
You mentioned teaching Czech. I don`t know if you have a
language authority like Duden in Czech, but if you do I`m sure
it helps. I haven`t looked at any of the English grammar books
or dictionaries so I don`t know what`s out there.[/quote]
Yes, we do have exactly one authority that is in charge of all
this:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_the_Czech_Language
It's very helpful because in Czech, so much can go wrong (not
saying Czech is harder than other languages, it's just... I'd
say peculiar), few people know how to use it correctly and the
majority of people know where to find the answer if they care
enough to do so. This is obviously a lot easier in a country of
10 million than it would be for all the countries scattered
around the world that speak English and use it their way.
Here's one of many lists of English grammar resources if you
feel like looking into it:
HTML https://www.grammarly.com/blog/10-best-grammar-resources-for-professionals/<br
/>There are both British and American resources there. I tend to
use the Cambridge Dictionary a lot
HTML https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/
It's not just
British English. You can try typing in any "American" expression
and it will probably know it and tell you whether it's formal,
informal, offensive etc.
[/quote]
Yes, Nikola, good students of a language look to all resources
to see what other opinions are, seek advice from native
speakers, are open to criticism or correction and don`t take it
personally, and just keep going. If they are seeking to improve,
they will improve. I am always willing to change my mind if
pursuaded I`m wrong. Sometimes it takes a little digging to be
sure I`m wrong, but if wrong, I`ll learn from it and move on.
I`ve found at least with German, you are pretty safe if you use
words that are not tagged (meaning they are standard) by Duden,
but that you can be reasonably safe in using either standard
language or going down a bit to colloquiums or even causal (some
call sloppy) speech. It´s dangerous to try to go up, so I
personally avoid words marked „geh“ for gehoben, elevated
speech, or „Amtsspr“ for official language without first
checking with a native speaker. It´s risky to to that. You can`t
get into trouble going a bit colloquial, since I`ve noticed the
frequency of word use is high in these categories. But with
elevated speech you need to be doubly sure it´s a word people
will use. Also anything marked „veraltend“, dated, you can
pretty much forget about. The words or verbs aren`t used or not
known by many (except older generations). And veraltet is just
dead altogether. It’s worse than veraltend. So yes, I think
shooting for the middle range speech is safest and knowing the
difference is very helpful. And even Duden is not always spot
on. I`ve found words Duden has pegged as „geh“ and asked native
speakers about it and they´ve said they never even heard the
word before. Same for words labeled „veraltend“. Or people might
say they´ve heard it only rarely but no one uses it.
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