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#Post#: 13581--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: SHL Date: March 23, 2019, 12:54 pm
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[quote author=SHL link=topic=918.msg13532#msg13532
date=1553200934]
I looked at this entire video and I can guarantee you this woman
does not know what she is talking about. All her „advice“ is
totally false and something she either just made up out of the
whole cloth, or read in a book somewhere written by someone who
knows nothing. „Try doing“ and „try to“ are totally synonymous.
She said „try to“ implies or means attempting something
difficult (climbing Mt. Everest as an example). Okay, let`s use
her rule here: „I tried (same as try just past tense) to pour
myself a cup of coffee today but I was clumsy and it spilled all
over the place.“ (She just said I have to say, „tried
pouring...“. Not wrong, just not necessary either) Is it hard to
pour a cop of coffee? Ah, no. Neal says, „I can`t slice the
bread with this knife. The blade must be dull.“ I say, „Try to
use this one, it´s brand new and sharp.“ (She says it has to be
„try using“-possible, but unnecessary). Neal says, „yeah, when
I tried to use that knife and it was easy.“ Or a mom says to her
son, „try to hit the toilet bowl when you use the toilet please.
I`m tired of cleaning up this messy bathroom floor.“ Does this
woman think is a difficult task for any male to hit the toilet
bowl when urinating? Absurd. What has this woman who did this
video been smoking?
Okay, I just violated her rule number one, on the „to do“ verbs,
very easily.
Now her „gerund“ example (gosh I hate that word „gerund.“ It
reminds me of being 17-years old and not having a clue what it
means). Now, according to this woman in the video, gerunds are
supposed to imply things that are easy to do or are used in
giving advice. Right?
„I am trying to run Neal´s greenhouse business today, but it`s
impossible because I know nothing about the business.“ (Hard to
do, for me and most people in all likelihood)“ Or, „he is trying
climbing Mt. Everest but it´s pretty hard to do.“ Her rule
number 2, just violated again even though the grammar is
correct.
Alternate use: giving advice: She says a correct sentence is
„try putting some salt on your potatoes...“ But what if you
said. Boy, these potatoes are bland.“ I say „try to put some
salt on them, they`ll taste better.“ (This should be a difficult
task, per her rule number 1???), What´s the difference? Ah,
none. Her rule violated in this instance too.
I`d say to this woman, „If you want to be a better English
teacher, try to learn (she says it has to be „learning“, which
is complete nonsense) real English grammar and not just make
junk like this up.
[/quote]
#Post#: 13589--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: Chizuko hanji Date: March 23, 2019, 1:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I didn't notice this topic. It looks interesting, but I have to
got to bed now. I'll read them tomorrow.
#Post#: 13596--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: SHL Date: March 23, 2019, 4:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chizuko link=topic=918.msg13589#msg13589
date=1553365912]
I didn't notice this topic. It looks interesting, but I have to
got to bed now. I'll read them tomorrow.
[/quote]
Go ahead and watch the video, Chizuko, but don`t believe this
woman. She doesn`t know what she`s talking about.
#Post#: 13613--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: Chizuko hanji Date: March 24, 2019, 6:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I watched it and read all the comments above. I realized SHL was
a lawyer. He is good at proving it is violated. ;)
When I watched it first, I had the same question as Nikola's.
"If you don't know the result, which is correct to use?" Then I
understood Suki's examples. However, as BB(Beard Brain)said, I
haven't heard "try ~ing" that much. It is because probably
Japanese people learn American English at school.
This is just my guessing as a student.
I think that the usage of 'try to' is related to the tense not
to the difficulty of the actions. Because you never know the
result of the actions. When you know the result once, you don't
have to say 'tried~ing'. You can say, 'did'.
[quote]I tried to lose weight = I tried and failed.
I tried losing weight = I tried (and succeeded to some extent)
but things still didn't work out the way I wanted.[/quote]
In this case, the second one means unsuccessful result too.so,
non English speakers don't notice the difference from the first
one. So Americans use alternative expressions when they started
talking in their diverse culture.
This is my assumption.
I'd say when I knew the result and used the past tense.
I tried to lose weight, but I failed.
I lost my weight a little bit successfully, not perfectly
though, I tried many methods.
'try + nouns' are seen in any situations. But I wouldn't say ' I
tried taking many methods" or 'tried losing my weight'. It
sounds confusing to me because I can't figure out what result
was.
The past tense 'tried to' is seen in the failed situations
obviously. But if the result was good, alternative expressions
are used instead of 'try'. It's natural.
I tried to call him and wanted to say I was sorry. But he never
answered the phone
I called him and said sorry. He forgave me. ← I wouldn't
say, "I tried calling and said", if I knew the good result.
The present and future tense, 'try to' is used for giving a try.
Try to call him! He will forgive you.
Yeah, I'll try to do it tonight. (Usually, you say, "I'll call
him.")
I climbed Mt.Fuji this year. I'll try to climb Everest next
year.
In my brain,
try to vs try -ing doesn't exist.
try to(not result yet) vs tried to(unsuccessful result) exists.
P.S.
I watched the video again. Hold on...."try adding salt", "try
speaking English" is also natural. It sounds familiar to me!
....mmm...I Gave up! I tried to figure it out., but I failed.
#Post#: 13615--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: Chizuko hanji Date: March 24, 2019, 8:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Sigh....I showed my silliness again. haha :D
I checked the grammar web site in Japanese. It was explained the
same as Suki's comments. Of course, she is a wonderful teacher
and I always trust her.
Also, I found the similar explanation to the teacher's in the
video, too.
1. I tried to open the door.( But it didn't open)
2. I tried opening the door.(I opened it anyway, but it closed
quickly automatically. It was like a magic.)(But again,if I was
a speaker, I would say the latter detailed one to clarify it.)
OK, I see! I understood!
By the way, the both of 1 and 2 are translated the same in
Japanese, so you need to add some words to clarify it anyway.
P.S.
Opening a door is always not difficult unlike climbing Everest.
I doubt a little bit about the teacher in the video.
According to her explanation,
If you think it is hard, you say
Try to open the door.
If you think it is easy, you say
Try opening the door.
I need more real experience of language with native English
speakers anyway.
#Post#: 13621--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: Chizuko hanji Date: March 24, 2019, 12:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]I tried to lose weight = I tried and failed.
I tried losing weight = I tried (and succeeded to some extent)
but things still didn't work out the way I wanted.[/quote]
[quote] I tried to open the door.( But it didn't open)
I tried opening the door.(I opened it anyway, but it closed
quickly automatically. It was like a magic.)[/quote]
The examples above are told after you saw the result.
[quote]She said „try to“ implies or means attempting something
difficult (climbing Mt. Everest as an example). Okay, let`s use
her rule here: „I tried (same as try just past tense) to pour
myself a cup of coffee today but I was clumsy and it spilled all
over the place.“ (She just said I have to say, „tried
pouring...“. Not wrong, just not necessary either) Is it hard to
pour a cop of coffee? Ah, no. Neal says, „I can`t slice the
bread with this knife. The blade must be dull.“ I say, „Try to
use this one, it´s brand new and sharp.“ (She says it has to be
„try using“-possible, but unnecessary). Neal says, „yeah, when
I tried to use that knife and it was easy.“ Or a mom says to her
son, „try to hit the toilet bowl when you use the toilet please.
I`m tired of cleaning up this messy bathroom floor.“Does this
woman think is a difficult task for any male to hit the toilet
bowl when urinating? Absurd. [/quote]
I think this is correct too. Which phrase can you use, try to or
try-ing before you know the result that how easy it is? I think
the real spoken English is more subjective to match the scenes.
I learned the differences between the English grammar in books
and the real spoken English.
#Post#: 13622--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: Chizuko hanji Date: March 24, 2019, 12:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]Don't try to scare her. = Don't take any deliberate
action to scare her.
Try not to scare her. = Avoid doing something that would
scare her, intentionally or unintentionally.
Try not scaring her. = How about not scaring her this
time? You normally scare people.
[/quote]
Oh, I understand but I can't use them properly...My brain is
going to explode. I have to go to bed now. I might see a dream
of English grammar. Good night. Thank you, everyone. I learned a
lot.
#Post#: 13628--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: SHL Date: March 24, 2019, 5:26 pm
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Chizuko,
I think my only point was when you over-complicate things, like
the woman in this video does, you just waste studnet`s time,
confuse them, and accomplish nothing. The alleged „rule“ she
invented or found someplace is just not a rule at all. People
are just not making the distinctions in speaking or writing she
is suggesting. And, just giving her the benefit of the doubt,
and assuming she were right and there was such a rule, at the
least she should have said that this is literary style, or
elevate style, but it`s okay to use the phrases interchangeably
and to do so is then just colloquial. At least admit to student
that they are not wrong is using the verbs in ways that deviate
from her alleged rule. Instead, focus on things that matter, and
on grammatical errors that are commonly made by non-natives as
opposed to native speakers, and it would be a far more useful
and practical exercise.
#Post#: 13642--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: Chizuko hanji Date: March 25, 2019, 12:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, SHL, you are right. I just made it complicated.
I don't want to say it was waste of time. It is harsh to say so
to me. I just tried and just failed. I don't like grammar in the
first place though, I tried to understand.
"You never know what you can do until you try." It's my favorite
phrase, even though I accomplish nothing.
[quote]but it`s okay to use the phrases interchangeably and to
do so is then just colloquial. At least admit to student that
they are not wrong is using the verbs in ways that deviate from
her alleged rule. Instead, focus on things that matter, and on
grammatical errors that are commonly made by non-natives as
opposed to native speakers, and it would be a far more useful
and practical exercise.[/quote]
Oh, SHL, you should have told me this first, please. so that I
would not have posted my silly comments of non-native speaker. I
would not have wasted my time. ;)
#Post#: 13705--------------------------------------------------
Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
By: SHL Date: March 26, 2019, 2:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Chizuko link=topic=918.msg13642#msg13642
date=1553492719]
Yeah, SHL, you are right. I just made it complicated.
I don't want to say it was waste of time. It is harsh to say so
to me. I just tried and just failed. I don't like grammar in the
first place though, I tried to understand.
"You never know what you can do until you try." It's my favorite
phrase, even though I accomplish nothing.
[quote]but it`s okay to use the phrases interchangeably and to
do so is then just colloquial. At least admit to student that
they are not wrong is using the verbs in ways that deviate from
her alleged rule. Instead, focus on things that matter, and on
grammatical errors that are commonly made by non-natives as
opposed to native speakers, and it would be a far more useful
and practical exercise.[/quote]
Oh, SHL, you should have told me this first, please. so that I
would not have posted my silly comments of non-native speaker. I
would not have wasted my time. ;)
[/quote]
Thank you Chizuko for the upvote. Neal and Jerry never give me
these (not too many other people do either, so yours might the
first) ;D
I really don`t know if this woman in the video just made her
rules up, or heard it someplace, or what. She`s not saying these
wrongly, it just incomplete. She could have easily said, „this
is stylistically better (her rules) but alternates are these
(ignoring the differences she`s pointing out) and they are more
colloquial“ and I think that would have been a better
explanation for learners. That way the learners can decide how
they want to speak, and most importantly be reassured that if
they they don`t follow her rules they are not speaking
grammatically incorrectly. For test taking this may matter, or
publishing a book, but if you just want to speak like a native,
you really don`t have to worry about her rules. And most
language learners goals are just to speak like a native. How
many people are expecting to publish papers or books in their
foreign language? Seriously. With this woman`s rules, no one is
going to hear the difference if they follow her rules or not. I
don`t. I use both ways of saying these things and hear them all
the time and don`t even notice the difference. The first time in
my entire life I ever heard her rule was in this video. And, I
thought, „wow she is overcomplicating things for non-natives“.
I pay a lot of attention to this in German for instance.
Sometimes more than one preposition can be used with a verb to
mean the same thing and is not wrong. Some can never be used.
But, knowing there are two possible options, or more, is
helpful because you know if you use one preposition instead of
another, when both are okay, your not making a mistake. It just
makes things easier. Maybe one might be stylistically better, or
sound more educated. True. But, it depends on your goals, of
course, so you have to tailor your speech to meet the goals. If
you are practicing for the ILETS you need to know what the
examiners want to hear and parrot it back to them (whether you
like it or not). All good test takers know that. Give the
examiner what he/she wants. Even if you think it is unnecessary
or being picky on their part. Put your pride aside.
I`ve found that being too formal in writing can get you into
trouble unless you really are skilled at the language. That´s
why I favor the colloquial speech, which everyone is going to
understand and is what the average guy on the street will
understand. It´s just far safer that way. You`ll sound more
native, and that´s the goal probably of most people anyway.
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