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#Post#: 13376--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chinamen / Chinese people
By: Alharacas Date: March 17, 2019, 6:48 am
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Thanks for making me look up the Goths, Neal. I see they're
considered eastern German tribes, probably having come from
either modern day Sweden or Poland. Also, nobody knows why they
started migrating, but I was taught it may have been due to yet
other peoples/tribes putting them under pressure, because those,
in turn, had started to move westwards - kind of a human
avalanche. Of course, it may also have been because the Goths
just liked moving around and going to war.
Anyway, it seems unlikely that expanding the Roman Empire
north-eastwards would have made much of a difference in the long
run, doesn't it?
Sounds like Essig, yes - the British version, to be exact. The
one they pour over Fish 'n Chips. In Germany, fish is served
with lemon slices. Everywhere. Even in the cheapest diner,
that's what you'll get. And in all my life, I haven't seen
bottles of vinegar being habitually put on tables here - except
in a ménage, of course, these sets of oil, vinegar, salt and
pepper you may get to dress your salad, and that's mostly in
French, Spanish or Italian restaurants.
The only condiment bottles you may see in (basic) German eating
places are ketchup and a completely unrecognizable version of
Worcestershire sauce (former GDR only).
#Post#: 13380--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chinamen / Chinese people
By: SuKi Date: March 17, 2019, 8:48 am
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I agree. Malt vinegar on the table is a British thing, not
German. Anywhere in the UK that unpretentious chips (as in
traditional chunky greasy 'fries') are served, there'll always
be a bottle of malt vinegar around.
Your local restauranteur must have got things a bit mixed up,
Neal.
#Post#: 13396--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chinamen / Chinese people
By: SHL Date: March 17, 2019, 6:09 pm
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Oh, living in Northern California, I can tell you all about the
words Chinamen and, excuse the expression, „Japs.“ They are both
definitely derogatory. Japs has kind of fallen by the wayside
and no one really says that anymore.
It`s very 1930s and 1940s sounding. Chinamen is different. It´s
hung around as an epithet for a long time.
The West Coast always had a big Asian population and the Chinese
immigrants in the 1860s helped build the railroad connecting
east to west. The Chinese workers got paid half of what the
whites were paid (and the blacks got half too). When they needed
a dangerous job done, like to put nitro-glycerin in the mines to
blow out a chuck of rock, they´d always say „Send one of the
Chinamen in to do the job.“ Supposedly the idea was, horribly
enough, if you lost one of them it was no big deal (shows you
how terrible the US has been historically to those of
non-European background).
In my mom´s town (where I`m still stuck) the town had about 50%
Japanese, most of whom were American citizens and born here.
Back in the 1930s it only had 1400 people (now over 100,000).
She`s got an old school picture showing her with her class in
about 1939. Half the class is white, the other half Japanese and
a few Chinese. Around 1943, she`s in another school picture and
it´s all white kids. No Japanese, not one, because they all got
sent off to the desert somewhere to internment camps. So, that
cleaned out about half the town. It´s really terrible. And after
the war they generally speaking didn`t return.
The few Chinese in town ran a laundry and a few restaurants. Mom
my said if they were going out to dinner, my grandfather would
ask, „So you wanna go to the Chinamen`s?“ My grandmother spoke
the same way. But it was never on the derogatory scale like
n*gger. On a derogatory scale of say 1-10, 1 being the least and
10 the worst, it was probably about a 7 or 8. But the N-word was
always a 10.
Until my grandmother died 20 years ago (at 100) she used to
always ask me to drive her to the store to shop. We had a
Chinese family running one of the stores, and she would always
say she wanted to go to the „Chinamen`s“ because their
vegetables were better (even though the store had a real name).
It´s kind of a joke now if I remind my mom of it and how they
used to talk. By the 70s I think it was less derogatory. Very
often the word was proceeded with „DAMN“ so that added emphasis
to it. The word Jap completely disappeared from the language, as
far as I can tell. No one says that anymore. But Japanese people
were always liked much more in my town than the Chinese for some
reason. I think my grandfather and grandmother just thought of
them as hardworking good people, who were just different is all.
But, to be called a „Chinamen“ always had a bit of a sting to
it.
I don`t believe the term Kraut ever really had any negative
associations with it, at least not here. No one really said it
and it´s just an old word someone tried to make derogatory
following WWI but it never really caught on.
But that is one thing about the US. More so earlier than now,
the US always had derogatory names for all but a few groups of
people. The only people who didn`t have any derogatory names
associated with them were those of Colonial British, Irish,
Scottish, or German descent (like my family). There were always
little derogatory words people came up with for others, most of
which came and went fast. I`m sure Neal has heard of the
„Irish-Mick“, and many more like that. A Mick didn`t last long
as a derogatory name and is archiac now, and very few people
ever accepted it as such even 100 years ago. I even heard Swedes
described as „Square Heads“ once in the 70s, which was
ridiculous. Only heard that one once. I always thought that was
super-weird.
I would not use Chinamen now to describe anyone (I don`t want to
sound like my grandmother and I really doubt she was even aware
it was a derogatory term. She was just mimicking what she grew
up with). Even someone from China I would just call Chinese. If
they were American I would just call them American.
#Post#: 13401--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chinamen / Chinese people
By: Susan Date: March 17, 2019, 7:53 pm
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SHL-- unfortunately the U.S. has had derogatory terms for almost
every ethnic group. I was sure I had heard some for Irish but
couldn´t remember it. It was ¨mick.¨
This list of ethnic slurs shows what a propensity human beings
(or at least English speakers) have to make up ethnic slurs.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs_by_ethnicity
You will see Chinaman is included on the list.
#Post#: 13407--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chinamen / Chinese people
By: SHL Date: March 17, 2019, 11:37 pm
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[quote author=Susan link=topic=901.msg13401#msg13401
date=1552870426]
SHL-- unfortunately the U.S. has had derogatory terms for almost
every ethnic group. I was sure I had heard some for Irish but
couldn´t remember it. It was ¨mick.¨
This list of ethnic slurs shows what a propensity human beings
(or at least English speakers) have to make up ethnic slurs.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs_by_ethnicity
You will see Chinaman is included on the list.
[/quote]
That´s a long list. Most I`ve never heard before. I did hear
„Saupreiß“ once, that one rings a bell, other than the usual
American ones. But, der Saupreiß is Bavarian is suppose for a
Prussian. I doubt it gets much use anymore. Sounds pretty dated
to me.
#Post#: 13463--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chinamen / Chinese people
By: NealC Date: March 20, 2019, 12:54 am
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SuKi
Well I guess he could have been confused. It was a nice enough
place but everything was imported so it was expensive. The
'pomme frite' (sp) were an important part of the menu so maybe
the malt vinegar was for them. It was weird enough to Americans
that you could get the "French fries" with mayonnaise.
The German beer was good. :-)
#Post#: 13498--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chinamen / Chinese people
By: SHL Date: March 20, 2019, 4:10 pm
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[quote author=SHL link=topic=901.msg13407#msg13407
date=1552883854]
[quote author=Susan link=topic=901.msg13401#msg13401
date=1552870426]
SHL-- unfortunately the U.S. has had derogatory terms for almost
every ethnic group. I was sure I had heard some for Irish but
couldn´t remember it. It was ¨mick.¨
This list of ethnic slurs shows what a propensity human beings
(or at least English speakers) have to make up ethnic slurs.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs_by_ethnicity
You will see Chinaman is included on the list.
[/quote]
That´s a long list. Most I`ve never heard before. I did hear
„Saupreiß“ once, that one rings a bell, other than the usual
American ones. But, der Saupreiß is Bavarian for a Prussian. I
doubt it gets much use anymore. Sounds pretty dated to me.
[/quote]
#Post#: 13576--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chinamen / Chinese people
By: Coligno Date: March 23, 2019, 11:31 am
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[quote author=Kseniia link=topic=901.msg13279#msg13279
date=1552631208]
By the way, am I the only person who has absolutely no idea what
sound this /ðʲ/ denotes? :'( How can you palatalise ð?
[/quote]
I'm disappointed, Kseniia: I thought, as a Russian speaker,
you'd be able to palatalise anything.
The exact degree of palatalisation in Old Irish isn't really
known, but it probably sounded something similar to the /ð/ in
English thee (as opposed to the /ð/ in bother, though most
English speakers probably don't notice the difference).
[quote author=Kseniia link=topic=901.msg13279#msg13279
date=1552631208]
[And if anyone thinks it's complicated, try Irish numerals,
you'll change your mind!]
[/quote]
Is that a hint?
Well, we don't have anything quite as crazy as changing the case
for different numbers* (and in fact nouns used with numbers tend
to resist changing for case whenever it would normally be
required by the grammar) instead we have initial mutations (for
anyone who doesn't know, that's where the sound at the beginning
of a word changes).
*but wait...
So to continue the canine theme, the word cú "hound" goes like
this:
aon chú (though in speech it would normally be cú amháin, where
amháin means "only" and the singularness is inherent in the
noun), dhá chú, trí chú, ceithre chú, cúig chú, sé chú, seacht
gcú, ocht gcú, naoi gcú, deich gcú
So, as you can see, the nominative singular form of the noun is
generally used, the numbers 1-6 cause "lenition" (whereby
plosive /k/ becomes fricative /x/), and the numbers 7-10 cause
"eclipsis" (whereby voiceless /k/ becomes voiced /g/).
A few nouns have a dual form, used with the number 2, mostly
referring to things that occur in pairs: hands, palms, ears,
feet, shoes, etc., so aon lámh, dhá láimh, trí lámh, "one hand,
two hands, three hands", etc.
And a few nouns have a special plural form which is used with
numbers from 3 upwards (and which is often different from the
normal plural form), and in those cases the numbers 3-6 don't
cause lenition, but prefix an h- if the word begins with a
vowel, here's uair "hour", normal plural uaireanta:
1 uair, 2 uair, 3 huaire, 4 huaire, 5 huaire, 6 huaire, 7
n-uaire, 8 n-uaire, 9 n-uaire, 10 n-uaire
Well, that's all straightforward enough; the fun really starts
when you get above 10, partly because the noun is inserted
between the units and the tens ("four hound teen"), and partly
because there are two rival counting systems, one decimal (base
10, an Indo-European inheritance), and the other vigesimal (base
20, probably a pre-Indo-European vestige). So here are our
hounds again:
aon chú dhéag, dhá chú dhéag, trí chú dhéag, ceithre chú dhéag,
cúig chú dhéag, sé chú dhéag, seacht gcú dhéag, ocht gcú dhéag,
naoi gcú dhéag, fiche cú (the dhéag, "teen", becomes déag after
singular nouns ending in a consonant -- cúig chat déag "15
cats")
To illustrate the difference between the decimal and the
vigesimal system, 33 hounds would be: trí chú is tríocha "three
hound and thirty" or trí chú dhéag ar fhichid "three hound teen
on twenty".
So that's how you count things in Irish. But of course, if it's
people you want to count, then you use a whole different set of
numerals, with their own rules:
duine "one person", beirt "two people", triúr "three people",
ceathrar "four people", cúigear "five people", seisear "six
people", seachtar "seven people", ochtar "eight people", naonúr
"nine people", deichniúr "ten people", aonar déag "eleven
people", dháréag "twelve people" (above 12 people you just use
the normal numbers)
You can also use these numbers with nouns, which will then be in
the genitive plural, and lenited after 2, so with bean "woman":
bean "one woman", beirt bhan "two women", triúr ban "three
women", ceathrar ban "four women", cúigear ban "five women",
seisear ban "six women", seachtar ban "seven women", ochtar ban
"eight women", naonúr ban "nine women", deichniúr ban "ten
women".
And if you're not counting people or things, but just counting,
then the numbers have a slightly different form again:
a haon, a dó, a trí, a ceathair, a cúig, a sé, a seacht, a
hocht, a naoi, a deich
There, it wasn't so complicated after all, was it?
#Post#: 13655--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chinamen / Chinese people
By: Kseniia Date: March 25, 2019, 11:06 am
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@Coligno, ah, it's hard to say if our palatalisation superpowers
extend to some foreign sounds we have never used in Russian or
quickly got rid of (as far as I know, the Greek tried to "teach"
us how to pronounce the sound /θ/, but speakers of Slavic
languages resisted their attempts with admirable stubbornness).
However, I'm afraid you're underestimating "most English
speakers": if it is indeed something like the /ð/ in thee, I
think the difference must be obvious.
But what a wonderful examination of Irish numerals! I think I'll
print it and hang it on the wall next to my first attempt to
count pennies in Irish, so that I can look at it and take a deep
breath whenever I feel like it's easier to use finger-counting
than to actually say the number (pathetic, I know). The funniest
thing is that we have the same "why don't we use a different set
of numerals for counting people" attitude* (so any Russian
speaker complaining about these numerals in Irish probably
deserves being rebuked for laziness), but some other things are
just... well, I'll just say that the "numeral" folder on my
computer is named "Bloodcurdling horror". And you didn't even
get to the best things:
1) that you have to use the singular article an (damn them
articles! but at least you don't have indefinite articles in
Irish...) before dhá which in this case becomes dá (surprise!),
and
2) that you have to use plural adjectives with singular nouns
for numbers 2-10 and of course after 3-10 (right?) adjectives
should be lenited only when the noun ends in a slender
consonant. "Enjoy your calculations, my dear comrade!"
*these numerals are optional, though: you can say either
четверо (4 people) or
четыре
человека (4
people), or even
четверо
человек (4 people) -
the latter is less common and some consider it a mistake, but
anyway. Plus they are slightly gender-discriminative:
четверо
мужчин (4 men) sounds fine,
and четверо
женщин (4 women) sounds..
well, a bit awkward.
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