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#Post#: 13194--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does off of sound a bit off to you?
By: Nikola Date: March 9, 2019, 4:22 am
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@Susan
So people might be doing it without realising it? Just adding a
little schwa? That explains a lot. It's probably why "off of a
horse" would sound strange to you. You'd have to say
"off-/ovə/" instead of the usual "off-/ə/", unless you
said "off-/ə//ə/ horse", which would sound even
weirder. In BrE it would sound like "offer a horse" :)
The Stones probably just needed an extra syllable.
@Kseniia
He does say "off of you" and he doesn't sound uneducated to me.
I have no idea where he's from, though. He doesn't sound British
to me but I'm not very good at recognising accents.
#Post#: 13196--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does off of sound a bit off to you?
By: Alharacas Date: March 9, 2019, 4:34 am
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Nikola, the guy's from South Africa. And no, I'm not really good
at recognizing accents, I've just watched some of his videos (or
tried to), and this is one of the few things he tells you.
Side note: The video Kseniia linked to appears to be the only
one where he actually talks about what he says he's going to
talk about. The rest of them are just click-bait. Which is a
shame, as I'd love to hear somebody talk about what it's like to
live in China.
I don't get why he has such a lot of subscribers - am I missing
something, or are they all brain-dead?
#Post#: 13197--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does off of sound a bit off to you?
By: Kseniia Date: March 9, 2019, 5:02 am
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@Alharacas, ah, South Africa... Thanks for clarifying!
As for bloggers, I'm not sure you'll be able to find anything
particularly interesting. Inexplicably, most western bloggers in
China usually speak of traditional stereotypes and prejudices
people from all over the world already have about the Chinese.
There is an element of truth in some of them, but all in all...
At least some of the bloggers are reasonable enough to add that
"in fact, most Chinese people are friendly etc., just know that
there are not nice people too", but it's not really informative
of course. Actually I think it's because in big cities it's
relatively easy to live in a bubble hanging out only with other
expats. To each their own, of course, but this representation of
the Chinese as total aliens is so ubiquitous that you just get
used to it.
#Post#: 13198--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does off of sound a bit off to you?
By: Truman Overby Date: March 9, 2019, 6:01 am
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It appears I was wrong. There are very, very limited cases in
which saying "off of" is correct. Maybe I do use it and don't
realize it as two others have suggested to me. Again, it would
be extremely limited usage.
#Post#: 13199--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does off of sound a bit off to you?
By: Coligno Date: March 9, 2019, 8:33 am
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[quote author=Kseniia link=topic=892.msg13197#msg13197
date=1552129376]
@Alharacas, ah, South Africa... Thanks for clarifying!
[/quote]
Yes, I can confirm that he does have a South African accent, but
it's a very mild one so it's not surprising everyone found it so
hard to pinpoint.
#Post#: 13504--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does off of sound a bit off to you?
By: NealC Date: March 21, 2019, 6:45 am
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I think it is an American thing. When you don't use of after
off you risk sounding British (and therefore, "putting on airs"
if you are not British), which could end up badly for you.
#Post#: 13579--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does off of sound a bit off to you?
By: SHL Date: March 23, 2019, 12:50 pm
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I don`t know if „off of“ is used in BrEnglisch or not. I`ll
assume not, since su ki says so.
But „off of“ is perfectly standard AmEnglisch. It is not
considered colloquial and is not uncommen. „He makes a lot of
money off of his business.“ You can leave the „of“ out and it`s
just the exactl same thing. With or it it`s the same. Redundant?
Not really.
I will guarantee you no native speaking American is going to
even hear or notice the difference or care, even if you were to
point it out. It is one of the most trivial things to worry
about there is for an English learner. If that´s all you`ve got
to worry about, believe me, you`re going really good. I use the
two interchangeably and don`t even notice it. I`d say about 90%
of the time „she fell off of the horse“ not „off the horse“ is
the most likely to be said, but the latter wouldn`t sound
strange to me either. I say don`t sweat the small stuff and
think of the two as interchangeable. Understanding is totally
unaffected as it is.
It reminds me of what linguists like Noam Chomsky have said, „If
someone has to teach you something about your own language
(native language) the odds are about 100% that what they are
teaching you is wrong. That´s why you have to be taught it.
Because it´s NOT your language.“
Stackexchange has an English board (and boards for everything
from chemistry to gameboards) and people debate ridiculously
silly nuances in expressions and words like this. And there are
no real „answers“. Native speakers disagree constantly on
things. I see this on the german.stackexchange board all the
time. The native speakers can`t even agree on things because
languages are fluid and change all the time.
And there are always the language purists who want to protect
their language from outside influences. That´s just ridiculous.
Example. 40 years ago I was taught you could always say in
German „das brauchts du nicht zu tun.“ You don`t need to do
that. But it always had to be cast in the negative. You could
never say „das brauchts du zu tun“ - the same phrase but in the
positive. Now, I`ve heard native German speakers say „das
brauchts du zu tun“. So, the language has changed. Unterestingy
enough I read that the exact same rule was appied in English
until the 1970s. Prior to 1970, you could never say „you need to
do that.“ It had to me „you must do that“, but you could always
say „you don`t need to do that.“ The „need to do that“ came as a
result of modern pop psychology suggesting new ways of
correcting children in less harsh ways who misbehaved. Instead
of scolding a child and saying „Don`t do that“, pop psychology
taught people to say, „Johnny, you need to listen to me. I need
you to do this.“ (I read about this in an article saying the
Netflix series, Man Men, depicting the US 1960s. The article
said the series was accurate in clothes design, cars, etc, but
inaccurate in some of the language used back then, as in the
example cited). I personally have no recollection if this phrase
was used in the 1960s,and I asked my mom about it, who would
have been at an age to remember, and she doesn`t recall. Native
speakers don`t pay attention to small stuff like this.
They do this constantly on german.stackexchange all the time,
with some people saying the phrase „das macht keinen Sinn“ (that
makes no sense) is an English import that should abandoned
because it likely was adopted in the 1980s, and the better
expression is „das ergibt keinen Sinn“ (or das is sinnlos).
Trivial nonsense like this is not even worthy of comment. I`ve
heard highly educated former German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt
say „das macht keinen Sinn“. That´s why I say only a fool would
criticize its modern use. So, the bottom line: ignore the trivia
and focus on the important stuff.
Of course, don`t be like the Peruvian translators who posted a
sign in Peru in Spanish, (with an illustration of a llama)
saying „Please don`t feed the llamas“ but placed the English
translation below it as „Please don`t feed the Flamingos“. LOL.
:)
#Post#: 13629--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does off of sound a bit off to you?
By: SHL Date: March 24, 2019, 5:32 pm
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Xx
#Post#: 13635--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does off of sound a bit off to you?
By: Alharacas Date: March 24, 2019, 8:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=SHL link=topic=892.msg13579#msg13579
date=1553363421]
It reminds me of what linguists like Noam Chomsky have said, „If
someone has to teach you something about your own language
(native language) the odds are about 100% that what they are
teaching you is wrong. That´s why you have to be taught it.
Because it´s NOT your language.“
Stackexchange has an English board (and boards for everything
from chemistry to gameboards) and people debate ridiculously
silly nuances in expressions and words like this. And there are
no real „answers“. Native speakers disagree constantly on
things. I see this on the german.stackexchange board all the
time. The native speakers can`t even agree on things because
languages are fluid and change all the time.
[/quote]
Steven, I really can't agree with either Chomsky or you.
Native speakers make mistakes all the time. I keep reading and
hearing things like "Salami mit Nüsse" (should be: mit Nüssen)
or "Ich verbinde Sie mit Herr Müller" (should be: mit Herrn
Müller). Now, granted, the German dative may become as obsolete
as the genitive already is - in time. But at the moment, leaving
out the dative ending is still considered a mistake and will get
you bad marks in an exam. (And so would "das brauchst du zu
tun", by the way.)
Plus, I think you're forgetting that you need to have an
extremely good grasp of a language in order to decide whether or
not something might be considered a "trivial" mistake (if there
is such a thing). For a language learner, this is obviously
impossible.
Also, please remember that many, if not most people here are
quite interested in this kind of question.
I would therefore ask you to kindly moderate your tone a little.
:)
#Post#: 13638--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does off of sound a bit off to you?
By: SHL Date: March 24, 2019, 10:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=892.msg13635#msg13635
date=1553476385]
[quote author=SHL link=topic=892.msg13579#msg13579
date=1553363421]
It reminds me of what linguists like Noam Chomsky have said, „If
someone has to teach you something about your own language
(native language) the odds are about 100% that what they are
teaching you is wrong. That´s why you have to be taught it.
Because it´s NOT your language.“
Stackexchange has an English board (and boards for everything
from chemistry to gameboards) and people debate ridiculously
silly nuances in expressions and words like this. And there are
no real „answers“. Native speakers disagree constantly on
things. I see this on the german.stackexchange board all the
time. The native speakers can`t even agree on things because
languages are fluid and change all the time.
[/quote]
Steven, I really can't agree with either Chomsky or you.
Native speakers make mistakes all the time. I keep reading and
hearing things like "Salami mit Nüsse" (should be: mit Nüssen)
or "Ich verbinde Sie mit Herr Müller" (should be: mit Herrn
Müller). Now, granted, the German dative may become as obsolete
as the genitive already is - in time. But at the moment, leaving
out the dative ending is still considered a mistake and will get
you bad marks in an exam. (And so would "das brauchst du zu
tun", by the way.)
Plus, I think you're forgetting that you need to have an
extremely good grasp of a language in order to decide whether or
not something might be considered a "trivial" mistake (if there
is such a thing). For a language learner, this is obviously
impossible.
Also, please remember that many, if not most people here are
quite interested in this kind of question.
I would therefore ask you to kindly moderate your tone a little.
:)
[/quote]
My apologies if I sounded like I was coming off too flippant or
abrupt about this (I can`t seem to find the best word at the
moment). I don`t mean to downplay the importance of grammar
rules. I should have been more careful about how I put this. I
do agree that standardized grammar rules are essential in that
they serve at least three critical functions. 1) they serve as a
benchmark by which the written language (grammar, words,
spellings) all follow the same pattern. We obviously have to
have this in books, literature and in anything written. We can`t
have people just writing any old way they feel like it whenever
they feel like it. That just would be chaotic. 2) Non-natives
learning a language have to have some guidelines to follow or
they will never be able learn the language. Then, finally 3),
native speakers need to know, what Chomsky calls, the literary
standard, so they can communicate in a standardized written form
(for books, literature and so on), thus serving the purpose of
reason 1). So, for these three reasons alone, standardized
grammar is ultilitarian and essential. We can`t do without it.
Now, the literary standard differs a little from what a native
speaker learns on the street, but it´s really not that
different. I think my take on it is just that a little more
leeway ought to be given to native speakers to speak in anyway
that seems natural to them. It´s just going to happen anyway and
it allows for the language to evolve and change over time.
Eventually, when some sort of change becomes so widely accepted
that no one sees it as aberrant, then someone changes the
grammar rules and the language changes. English has no grammar
authority, like Duden, but I suppose there are multiple
unofficial authorities.
I never really questioned any of this until I heard so much of
it on italki. People would say a native speaker made a mistake
or what have you, and I would just think „Oh, yeah. Okay. I
guess that was a mistake.“ But, for some reason it seemed a
little odd to me to say a native speaker was speaking
incorrectly in his or her own language. It just didn`t make
sense on some level. Of course, italki only dealt with the
written form of the language, so I guess a criticism was fair
with regard to the writing. I think what didn`t sit well with me
was this notion of „wrongness“. I think that, rather than saying
a native speaker speaks incorrectly (on occasion), I would
prefer to say the speech was just non-standard. You could pass
it off as a regionalism, or something, and I think that would be
a better description they saying it was wrong. Now, when it
comes to the written word, that is different. If people need to
write for professional reasons, then they have to learn the
literary standard.
Again, no intent to offend anyone here and my apologies if I
did, because the people on this board are the best and nicest
I`ve ever encountered on any social media site on the internet.
We really do have the finest of the fine as they say here. We
all know how some people are on italki, and on many other sites,
like Quora. Quora and others are filled with some not-so-kind
folks. :)
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