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#Post#: 11871--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question for SHL
By: SHL Date: January 30, 2019, 5:46 pm
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For anyone who has looked at this thread, I would encourage you
to read Neal`s link to Riker`s Island. It´s an appalling story.
This is classic 3rd world country prison stuff. Here`s a brief
piece (only partial excerpt) from the Economist, from a 2017
story about the place. Let´s hope they close the „torture
island“ down soon.
„KALIEF BROWDER was 16 years old when he was arrested for
allegedly stealing a backpack. When his family could not pay
bail, he was sent to Rikers Island, New York’s largest jail.
There he spent around 800 days in solitary confinement; he was
beaten by guards and other inmates and tried several times to
kill himself. Because his hearings were delayed, he ended up
spending three years on Rikers, all the while claiming his
innocence. His case was dismissed in 2013 and he was released.
But the damage had been done, and he eventually killed himself.
His tale, not an unusual one, provoked a campaign to close the
“torture island”, as inmates call it, altogether. Bill de
Blasio, New York’s mayor, agrees. On March 31st he vowed to
begin a ten-year process to shut it.
Three-quarters of the roughly 9,400 people held in New York
City’s jails have not been convicted of anything. Most are
housed on Rikers. The place has become a warehouse for people
too poor to post bail or suffering from addiction or
mental-health problems (jails, unlike prisons, are locally
operated and hold people serving short sentences or awaiting
trial). Because of backlogs, many wait months for their day in
court. Even a short stay behind bars can be very disruptive. It
can mean loss of job, home and custody of children.....“
#Post#: 11872--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question for SHL
By: Aliph Date: January 30, 2019, 6:00 pm
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Steven can you explain what “bailing out means”? We do not have
that on Europe.
#Post#: 11876--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question for SHL
By: SHL Date: January 30, 2019, 6:25 pm
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It´s hard to compare 3rd world prisons to those in the US, but
US prisons are not much better. Different, but not necessarily
in a more humane way.
I`ve watched several German YouTube videos under a series called
„Hinter fremden Gittern“, behind foreign bars, which deals with
German nationals who are imprisoned in Latin American jails,
normally over drug smuggling offenses. Often the guys were set
up, offered something like 10,000€ in Germany to fly to say
Lima, Peru, to pick up drugs to smuggle. They were to be paid
the money when they get back. The airfare is paid for in
advance, as well as like 2 nights in a cheap Lima hotel. Then,
of course, the smugglers get caught at the airport in Lima
trying to get back.
This is frequently done as a cover for real smugglers to make it
easier for them to get through. So the guys getting caught were
just decoys (I thought there was an English word for this, but I
can`t seem to think of one at the moment. There might not be
one. If anyone knows, let me know. I thought it might be
„patsy“, but the German translation doesn`t seem to fit. It just
matches the English Webster’s definition). Sending the guys in
to get caught as a cover for the real smugglers is what I`d call
in German a „Ablenkungsmanöver“ or a diversionary tactic. That
seems to be the only word that fits.
But, the series shows the conditions of 3rd world prisons. There
was a segment on 5 or 6 German guys in a prison in Lima serving
a various number of years, from like 4-10, but they were lucky
in that they were housed separatedly from the local Peruvians,
who had it worse off. The food was pretty awful, and the
overcrowding was pretty terrible- like a prison built for 750
housing 2500?
It´s an apples and oranges comparison, but in some ways the
Peruvian prisons were better, in some ways worse than the US
ones. Like in the Peruvian prisons there was virtually no
medical care (except for a really ridiculous little clinic),
where in the US there is some semblance of some medical care,
even if it is poor. And the Peruvian food looked deadly, where
in the US, it might not be good, but it is not likely deadly.
The positives about the Peruvian system was the prisoners got to
wear their street clothes, so there was no sense of perpetual
humiliation, and the guards didn`t abuse them. They just
demanded bribes for everything (better food, a bed, etc). In the
US, many of the guards are just sadists.(see Neal`s Riker`s
Island article.)
Plus, in the Peruvian prisons, the prisoners are allowed to just
wonder around the prison all day. They`re just locked up at
night. This may increase the risk that they harm one another,
but at least they don`t spend 23 hours a day in a cell. That
seems more humane to me, to be allowed to wonder around all day.
They were also allowed to earn a tiny bit of money by working in
woodworking shops.
Plus, in Peru they had weekly conjugal visits, or entire family
visits, where the families would show up with little kids and
bring the inmates food and supplies. That doesn`t happen in US
prisons. And, there was always a long line of prostitutes at the
Peruvian prison to pay visits to the inmates. It was technically
not allowed but all it took was 50 cents to pay a guard to look
away. Again, that doesn't happen in the US.
#Post#: 11877--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question for SHL
By: SHL Date: January 30, 2019, 6:38 pm
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[quote author=Sofia link=topic=804.msg11872#msg11872
date=1548892851]
Steven can you explain what “bailing out means”? We do not have
that on Europe.
[/quote]
Sure, Sofia. That`s just the bond/deposit someone pays to get
out of jail while awaiting trial. In a way it´s a bit like the
Pfand (deposit) you pay on a returnable bottle of something at
the store. You get the deposit back when you bring the empty
bottle back.
They have that in Germany I believe, it`s called a „Kaution“,
which is just some sum of money to guarantee you won`t disappear
while free on bail before being convicted or acquitted. „Bailing
out“ is just the verb for posting the bond (bail, it´s the same
thing) to get out of jail pending trial. If you can`t „bail
out“, that just means you are stuck in jail the whole time
awaiting trial.
A „Bailbonds man“ is like an insurance person who charges 10% as
a bond fee. The bond is like an insurance policy. In other
words, if the bail amount is $5,000, the person arrested pays
the bailbonds man $500 for the $5,000 bond fee. That $500 is
never recoverable. If the person shows up for trial and other
pre-trial hearings, as he or she is supposed to, then bond at
some point is what we call „exonerated“ and the $5,000 is paid
back to the bondsman/insurer. The bondsman keeps the $500 as his
fee. That´s how they make their money. If the accused skips
town, and never shows up to court, the $5,000 is lost
(forfeited) and then the bondsman can hire a „bounty hunter“ to
find the person and bring him back. That´s what a bounty hunter
is.
#Post#: 11879--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question for SHL
By: SHL Date: January 30, 2019, 7:08 pm
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Sofia,
I just checked a German article about bailing out on a criminal
charge in Germany, and you are correct. It really is the
exception rather than the norm, unlike in the US. Although
German law technically allows for it, it is rather uncommon,
quite rare in fact, except in cases of doubtful criminal
charges.
So, it’s possible it seems, but pretty unusual. And it would
seem they don’t have bailbonds men in Germany either.
HTML https://www.focus.de/finanzen/experten/tobias_klingelhoefer/untersuchungshaft-eine-kaution-fuer-verdaechtige-ist-eher-selten_id_8470891.html
#Post#: 11882--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question for SHL
By: Kseniia Date: January 30, 2019, 8:03 pm
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Many thanks to everyone commented, especially to SHL! (ah,
Steven, I really hope you actually know what my name sounds like
and "Kesnii" is just a typo!). So, jails are for people awaiting
trial and serving short sentences, and prisons are for long-term
incarceration. At least in the US. Got it.
[s]And you have bounty hunters! Amazing. [/s]
#Post#: 11883--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question for SHL
By: SHL Date: January 30, 2019, 8:24 pm
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[quote author=Kseniia link=topic=804.msg11882#msg11882
date=1548900205]
Many thanks to everyone commented, especially to SHL! (ah,
Steven, I really hope you actually know what my name sounds like
and "Kesnii" is just a typo!). So, jails are for people awaiting
trial and serving short sentences, and prisons are for long-term
incarceration. At least in the US. Got it.
[s]And you have bounty hunters! Amazing. [/s]
[/quote]
Sorry, Kseniia, yes that was a typo.
You scratched out the part about bounty hunters. Yeah, we really
do have those people. Just like the Wild West. So, if you „jump
bail“ as we call it you`ve got the cops AND a bounty hunter
looking for you.
You know the expression „it´s time to get out of Dodge“? Dodge
is like somewhere in the midwest, like Kansas or someplace
(Susan could tell you) and back in the 1800s, like the cowboy
era, if you were wanted and in the City of Dodge, it was time to
leave, and fast. Hence, the expression „get out of Dodge.“ So,
if someone jumps bail, I`d say it`s time for that person to get
out of Dodge.
One thing that´s different about the US and Europe, (I think
this is true for all of Europe, not sure) but we have no
registration of residency requirement here (like in Germany
where they have the Einwohnermeldeamt). So, you can just pack up
and move anywhere you want and never tell anyone and then settle
in any town you want and never tell anyone. So, in a sense I`ve
heard it`s easier to go underground in the US. If you rent a
house or apartment, no one is going to expect you to register
your new address with any government office. But, we sort of get
around that by requiring people keep addresses on drivers
licenses current. That sort of thing. And your banks and credit
cards are going to want current addresses on you. So, there are
little differences like that.
#Post#: 11887--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question for SHL
By: NealC Date: January 30, 2019, 11:10 pm
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Rikers is kind of notorious, I don't think it is standard fare
for Jails in the US.
If you do jump bail in the US you become a 'fugitive', and you
basically lose all of your rights until you are caught or you
turn yourself in. Bounty Hunters can do all sorts of things
that cops cannot. When you sign a Bail Bonds contract, you
basically sign over your civil rights to the bondsman.
#Post#: 11896--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question for SHL
By: Aliph Date: January 31, 2019, 8:33 am
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I have the impression that the whole thing about bail is a big
business in California (no idea about the rest of the US) and
that the judiciary system works hand in hand with dubious bail
agencies.
#Post#: 11901--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question for SHL
By: Kseniia Date: January 31, 2019, 9:24 am
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@Sofia, yeah, I agree, it looks like some kind of business to
me, too.
@Neal,
[quote author=NealC link=topic=804.msg11887#msg11887
date=1548911415]
Bounty Hunters can do all sorts of things that cops
cannot.[/quote]
Emmm... I'm not sure I want to ask this question really but
anyway... What sorts of things? I mean, they can't have a
permission to beat you, for example? That would be crazy and too
"The Hateful Eight"ish. So what can they do to you if you jump
bail, legally?
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