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#Post#: 11494--------------------------------------------------
THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
By: Aliph Date: January 18, 2019, 7:12 am
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Since I am not on Italki anymore I missed that discussion.
I never studied English grammar and know no rules, I noticed
however that I say THEE United States.
How’s the rule?
#Post#: 11496--------------------------------------------------
Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
By: NealC Date: January 18, 2019, 7:47 am
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I don't think there is a rule, not even an informal one. Off
the top of my head I can't think of a regional accent that would
claim a rule, nor an immigrant group that would struggle over
it. I can't remember being corrected on my usage of either. I
never think about it but I know I use both.
It has to be whatever is easiest for your mouth to pronounce in
the particular sentence, as the word is everywhere. English did
win the lottery in the "easiest definite article" category.
Certainly not like Italian (shudder).
#Post#: 11499--------------------------------------------------
Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
By: Alharacas Date: January 18, 2019, 10:15 am
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Sofia, the rule is: "thuh" + consonant, but "thee" + vowel,
resp. vowel sound, e.g. "thee" before "honesty", as the "h" has
to be dropped, but "thuh" one (because although the word "one"
technically starts with a vowel, it doesn't start with a vowel
sound).
Apart from that, "thee" may also be used for emphasis, for
example if somebody says "Johnny Depp was at our hotel last
week" and you respond with "What? You mean, THEE Johnny Depp?"
#Post#: 11505--------------------------------------------------
Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
By: SHL Date: January 18, 2019, 1:07 pm
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[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=779.msg11499#msg11499
date=1547828144]
Sofia, the rule is: "thuh" + consonant, but "thee" + vowel,
resp. vowel sound, e.g. "thee" before "honesty", as the "h" has
to be dropped, but "thuh" one (because although the word "one"
technically starts with a vowel, it doesn't start with a vowel
sound).
Apart from that, "thee" may also be used for emphasis, for
example if somebody says "Johnny Depp was at our hotel last
week" and you respond with "What? You mean, THEE Johnny Depp?"
[/quote]
Yes, the „the“ does have the pronunciation differences Alharacas
described. I learned that myself only a few weeks ago in the
videos I watched. I was unaware of the distinction until then,
but always used it.
Native speakers aren’t taught or corrected on the pronunciation
of their own language (we should be so we would then know how we
are pronouncing words, and it´s a super-simple rule). But, we
just distinguish these things based on what sounds right.
#Post#: 11508--------------------------------------------------
Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
By: SHL Date: January 18, 2019, 2:50 pm
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[quote author=NealC link=topic=779.msg11496#msg11496
date=1547819244]
I don't think there is a rule, not even an informal one. Off
the top of my head I can't think of a regional accent that would
claim a rule, nor an immigrant group that would struggle over
it. I can't remember being corrected on my usage of either. I
never think about it but I know I use both.
It has to be whatever is easiest for your mouth to pronounce in
the particular sentence, as the word is everywhere. English did
win the lottery in the "easiest definite article" category.
Certainly not like Italian (shudder).
[/quote]
I agree that English wins the lottery in the easiest definite
article category because there`s no grammatical gender to nouns.
But, that´s just the tip of the iceberg. Languages are more than
just definite articles or even grammar. So, I don’t say English
is an „easy“ language to learn. I used to hear that all the time
and also about Spanish, being, ah so easy. No they`re not. No
language is easy to learn and it´s a mild put-down, I always
thought, to tell a native speaker that their language is „easy“
to learn. It´s a bit like telling them they are dim-witted
because all they can speak is this „easy“ language. Of course
it`s untrue. Equally untrue is the illusion people create for
themselves when they, as native speakers of a language, are told
their language is „one of the most difficult in the world.“ It
puffs up the native speaker and falsely makes him or her think
they are brilliant by mastering their own native language. It´s
all nonsense.
#Post#: 11512--------------------------------------------------
Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
By: NealC Date: January 18, 2019, 8:49 pm
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Alharacas is it really a published "rule"? I know it is
certainly entirely unconscious in my speaking and I cannot
remember it being taught in school.
Steve I disagree with what you said - native speakers are indeed
taught pronunciation and grammar. I remember struggling through
the mire of it in Jr High School. I also think that once you
reach school age there is a lot of peer pressure to conform to
speaking like everyone else. That is where regional accents
come from.
I think we ought to hire schoolchildren in our target language
to follow us around and make fun of our speaking mistakes. That
is the only way to have a language program that truly meets the
advertising - "Learn your target language intuitively, just like
a child does"!
#Post#: 11517--------------------------------------------------
Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
By: SHL Date: January 18, 2019, 10:07 pm
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[quote author=NealC link=topic=779.msg11512#msg11512
date=1547866170]
Alharacas is it really a published "rule"? I know it is
certainly entirely unconscious in my speaking and I cannot
remember it being taught in school.
Steve I disagree with what you said - native speakers are indeed
taught pronunciation and grammar. I remember struggling through
the mire of it in Jr High School. I also think that once you
reach school age there is a lot of peer pressure to conform to
speaking like everyone else. That is where regional accents
come from.
I think we ought to hire schoolchildren in our target language
to follow us around and make fun of our speaking mistakes. That
is the only way to have a language program that truly meets the
advertising - "Learn your target language intuitively, just like
a child does"!
[/quote]
Yeah, we all had to take English classes in Jr. and Sr. High
School, but did anyone really pay attention to grammar? I
didn`t. And pronunciation was never taught to us. They may have
had special classes for people with speech impediments, but that
wasn`t a standard part of the curriculum. All I remember about
even high school English class was being bored in it, as was
everyone else. In my mom`s day, they actually did diagram
sentences, and learn subjects and object, but not where and when
I went to school, which were all in public schools.
I think teaching theories change over the years, and in the
1970s there might have been a liberalizing trend, at least in
California, to get away from teaching grammar (the idea of
teaching pronunciation outside a English as a Second Language
Class sounds totally foreign to me. Why would you need to do
that?) and use different approaches.
I can`t even remember what English class was all about in those
days. It was about as useful as PE.
#Post#: 11518--------------------------------------------------
Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
By: NealC Date: January 18, 2019, 11:38 pm
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I remember from Jr High:
1. I hated grammar
2. I hated the kids who liked grammar
I remember diagramming sentences. I even challenged the teacher
on it "Why are we learning this stuff?" "No one makes sentences
like this". Of course that didn't go over well.
Now speech class I liked. The Speech teacher would come to
class every year and take us one by one into the hall and have
us say a series of tounge twisters. She was listening for
stutters, speech impediments and lisps. I had a lisp in first
grade, said th instead of s sometimes. So a couple of times a
week we would leave regular class and go play speech games with
the cute speech teacher. She also gave us candy.
I was cured pretty quick, but soon learned how to talk with a
lisp whenever she was around. I was able to keep up that con
well into 3rd grade.
#Post#: 11519--------------------------------------------------
Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
By: Alharacas Date: January 19, 2019, 2:47 am
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[quote author=NealC link=topic=779.msg11512#msg11512
date=1547866170]
Alharacas is it really a published "rule"? I know it is
certainly entirely unconscious in my speaking and I cannot
remember it being taught in school.
[/quote]
I can't really prove it right now, but yes, I seem to remember
it was mentioned in one of the Cambridge books I had to use in
class. Plus, if I hadn't had to teach it, I don't think I'd have
been able to come up with the rule at the drop of a hat. I'm not
surprised you can't remember being taught about this in school,
though. As you said, you use whatever's easiest on the tongue.
It's just that this fits nicely into a rule (for once). ;)
[quote author=NealC link=topic=779.msg11512#msg11512
date=1547866170]
I think we ought to hire schoolchildren in our target language
to follow us around and make fun of our speaking mistakes. That
is the only way to have a language program that truly meets the
advertising - "Learn your target language intuitively, just like
a child does"!
[/quote]
Be careful what you wish for. This may be exactly what you're
going to get once you've retired to that Italian village of your
dreams. :)
#Post#: 11520--------------------------------------------------
Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
By: Aliph Date: January 19, 2019, 3:28 am
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[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=779.msg11519#msg11519
date=1547887651]
I can't really prove it right now, but yes, I seem to remember
it was mentioned in one of the Cambridge books I had to use in
class. Plus, if I hadn't had to teach it, I don't think I'd have
been able to come up with the rule at the drop of a hat. I'm not
surprised you can't remember being taught about this in school,
though. As you said, you use whatever's easiest on the tongue.
It's just that this fits nicely into a rule (for once). ;)
[/quote]
Further question: is it wrong to say thuh onion, thuh elevator?
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