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#Post#: 9911--------------------------------------------------
The US will Commit Suicide
By: SHL Date: December 4, 2018, 1:53 pm
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Neal`s nasty remarks about the wonders accomplished in Cuba got
me thinking. Like Lincoln said, no foreign power will take over
the US or change it, but it will self-destruct (the sooner the
better I say). We can see this already. Totalitarian police
state tactics going up everywhere.
There are many youtube videos of people escaping from the US.
According to one fellow who has a youtube channel, an American,
he escaped to Mexico recently (this year) with his wife and
family. He said they`ve set up “exit” checkpoints all along the
land border with Canada and Mexico to prevent Americans from
leaving, and these exit check points are so high-tech they make
the old East German, DDR, government look like amateurs doing
this. But, it was much better back in the 80s for people who
made it out of the DDR, because if you didn`t like the DDR, (I
don`t know why anyone wouldn’t ) and you somehow left, in any
sort of way (legal or illegal), you just got automatic
citizenship in West Germany. So, it was easy to acquire West
German citizenship for those people. (My understanding is West
Germany had an open door policy toward East Germans who made it
to West Germany. )
Americans that escape the US have no one that will even take
them in. The guy filmed friendly exchanges with Mexican police,
who he`d shake hands with, in contrast with American police who
taser you (electro-shock you during an arrest), often for no
reason. One US policeman almost killed a 17-year old years ago
during a routine traffic stop over nothing. It was appalling.
Yeah, you need permission to leave the US now it seems. And the
wall Trump is building is to keep people IN, not out. The USA
wants to make slaves out of its already enslaved population.
Unfortunately, the few Americans who have escaped to the EU and
applied for asylum there are rejected. It`s really too bad. But,
then no one wants to take on the Schulhof-Rabauke, particularly
if he`s big and strong.
The world is like a school yard. There`s the bully who harasses
the other kids and wants to push everyone around (that`s the US)
and there are the quite kids who just want to be left alone (the
rest of the world).
#Post#: 9918--------------------------------------------------
Re: The US will Commit Suicide
By: Nikola Date: December 4, 2018, 3:58 pm
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@SHL
I don't normally get involved in these discussions but what you
said there about leaving the DDR in the 80s is not true. Perhaps
right at the end, in 1989, the situation improved, but people
were not just able to leave as they pleased throughout the 80s.
They would have been shot. We provided an older East-German
couple with shelter and food one particularly cold winter in the
late 80s. Their relatives were escaping through the West-German
embassy in Prague to West Germany. They were leaving on a train
the next day and the couple wanted to say goodbye to them in the
morning but had nowhere to stay. They were also absolutely
heartbroken as they thought they'd never see their children
again. I was very small but I remember them. We remained in
touch for long years after.
So from what you're saying, this would seem like a rather silly
thing to do, considering they could have just applied for West
German citizenship. I think that many people would find what
you've written extremely upsetting.
#Post#: 9919--------------------------------------------------
Re: The US will Commit Suicide
By: SHL Date: December 4, 2018, 4:18 pm
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[quote author=Nikola link=topic=664.msg9918#msg9918
date=1543960718]
@SHL
I don't normally get involved in these discussions but what you
said there about leaving the DDR in the 80s is not true. Perhaps
right at the end, in 1989, the situation improved, but people
were not just able to leave as they pleased throughout the 80s.
They would have been shot. We provided an older East-German
couple with shelter and food one particularly cold winter in the
late 80s. Their relatives were escaping through the West-German
embassy in Prague to West Germany. They were leaving on a train
the next day and the couple wanted to say goodbye to them in the
morning but had nowhere to stay. They were also absolutely
heartbroken as they thought they'd never see their children
again. I was very small but I remember them. We remained in
touch for long years after.
So from what you're saying, this would seem like a rather silly
behaviour, considering they could have just applied for West
German citizenship. I think that many people would find what
you've written extremely upsetting.
[/quote]
Nikola,
No, I don`t mean to upset anyone here. That wasn´t the intent.
I understand the situation in the DDR before 1989. Yes, many who
wanted to leave were not allowed to. True.
Actually, they could freely leave after age 65, which I always
thought was rather interesting (I think I read that in a mid-80s
article in Der Spiegel) and some people left early, such as in
the 1950s too, don`t forget when it was far easier (that was
before the border controls /wall went up). And, I believe they
may have been able to travel to other Eastern Bloc countries,
like Hungary. I can`t say for sure, but I saw a youtube
documentary on Interflug, their State Airline at the time, and
it mentioned people going to the USSR, Vietnam, and other
places. So, I`m not discounting anyone`s personal experience
they are unhappy about, but the entire picture and history is
just a bit more nuanced. That´s all.
But, that wasn`t my focus in the remarks. The DDR has been gone
for 27 years.
Also, I modified the comments to clarify I was not suggesting
anyone could leave the DDR anytime they wanted or that it (the
leaving) was easy.
#Post#: 9920--------------------------------------------------
Re: The US will Commit Suicide
By: Nikola Date: December 4, 2018, 5:41 pm
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@SHL
I'm glad you changed your comment. I know it wasn't the main
point you were trying to make but still...
So if they were free to leave once they turned 65, then I
definitely don't understand what the couple were so sad about or
why they were saying goodbye to their children. Don't suppose
you've kept the paper where you read it. I'd be interested to
know how it worked in terms of pension etc. I haven't been able
to find anything about the 65+ rule on the internet.
#Post#: 9922--------------------------------------------------
Re: The US will Commit Suicide
By: Alharacas Date: December 4, 2018, 6:39 pm
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Nikola, yes, that's correct: from 1964, pensioners were allowed
to travel to the FRG once a year. (Let me know if you'd like the
relevant link to the German wikipedia.)
And the GDR didn't mind at all if they never returned - everyone
who stayed in the FRG meant the government of the GDR had one
pension less to pay, as those who'd left would receive theirs
from the FRG-pension pot, you see. ;) Plus, it meant one house
or apartment more for the people of the GDR, something not to be
sneezed at, considering the permanent housing shortage. When my
grandparents left for the West in 1966, for example, several
families were immediately moved into their house (no, no
compensation whatsoever. On the contrary - my grandparents, and
later their heirs, were expected to keep paying for the
utilities, otherwise the house would have been officially
expropriated.)
And yes, it had occurred to me that the sadness of that elderly
couple was a bit strange under these circumstances. However,
there may have been complications: if, for example, the couple
had been privy to information considered secret by the GDR, or
if some close family members were officers in the GDR army -
that kind of thing would have meant no Westkontakte, let alone
travelling to the FRG.
(I remember there being a big hoo-ha about my parents visiting
my uncle in Dresden in the 70ies, because one of my cousins had
married a woman whose father was a high-ranking army officer -
it was unclear until the last moment whether my parents would be
allowed to meet my cousin and his wife. Meeting the woman's
parents was out of the question.)
#Post#: 9923--------------------------------------------------
Re: The US will Commit Suicide
By: SHL Date: December 4, 2018, 8:48 pm
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[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=664.msg9922#msg9922
date=1543970382]
Nikola, yes, that's correct: from 1964, pensioners were allowed
to travel to the FRG once a year. (Let me know if you'd like the
relevant link to the German wikipedia.)
And the GDR didn't mind at all if they never returned - everyone
who stayed in the FRG meant the government of the GDR had one
pension less to pay, as those who'd left would receive theirs
from the FRG-pension pot, you see. ;) Plus, it meant one house
or apartment more for the people of the GDR, something not to be
sneezed at, considering the permanent housing shortage. When my
grandparents left for the West in 1966, for example, several
families were immediately moved into their house (no, no
compensation whatsoever. On the contrary - my grandparents, and
later their heirs, were expected to keep paying for the
utilities, otherwise the house would have been officially
expropriated.)
And yes, it had occurred to me that the sadness of that elderly
couple was a bit strange under these circumstances. However,
there may have been complications: if, for example, the couple
had been privy to information considered secret by the GDR, or
if some close family members were officers in the GDR army -
that kind of thing would have meant no Westkontakte, let alone
travelling to the FRG.
(I remember there being a big hoo-ha about my parents visiting
my uncle in Dresden in the 70ies, because one of my cousins had
married a woman whose father was a high-ranking army officer -
it was unclear until the last moment whether my parents would be
allowed to meet my cousin and his wife. Meeting the woman's
parents was out of the question.)
[/quote]
Yes, thank you Alharacas for clarifying that.
I knew for sure that at age 65 and above, DDR nationals were
allowed to leave the country for the West, but I cannot recall
the details, other than reading about it in Der Spiegel some 35
years ago. That was something that did stick in my mind. I used
to like reading Der Spiegel in the 80s, and I can`t recall how I
ever got my hands on a copy of the magazine back then in
California. They just weren`t for sale at every bookstore. It
may have been I either got it from the University library, or it
might have been in the main faculty office of one of my German
professors. But, I do recall not being surprised to learn of
this.
#Post#: 9925--------------------------------------------------
Re: The US will Commit Suicide
By: NealC Date: December 4, 2018, 9:03 pm
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Yeah, the same thing happened to the older horses in Animal Farm
when they could no longer pull the plow.
#Post#: 9926--------------------------------------------------
Re: The US will Commit Suicide
By: SHL Date: December 4, 2018, 10:11 pm
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[quote author=NealC link=topic=664.msg9925#msg9925
date=1543978990]
Yeah, the same thing happened to the older horses in Animal Farm
when they could no longer pull the plow.
[/quote]
Always negative Neal, always negative.
You`re pretty good with the legal objections, Neal. You gotta
come up with some more, more than just non-responsive. :)
#Post#: 9927--------------------------------------------------
Re: The US will Commit Suicide
By: NealC Date: December 4, 2018, 10:16 pm
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Perhaps I will, whenever you actually respond to questions.
#Post#: 9929--------------------------------------------------
Re: The US will Commit Suicide
By: Nikola Date: December 5, 2018, 3:41 am
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@Alharacas
Yes please, I'd be interested to read the article. I had no idea
this was the case.
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