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#Post#: 8437--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: Truman Overby Date: October 27, 2018, 3:44 pm
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[quote author=NealC link=topic=551.msg8436#msg8436
date=1540671706]
How is the social welfare state possible when paired with
uncontrolled immigration?
[/quote]
That's exactly what Merkel has finally realized. The UK also.
We're witnessing the complete cultural and religious
transformation of Europe. It's going in fast motion, not slow.
The frog in the pot never feels the heat until it's too late.
#Post#: 8442--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: NealC Date: October 27, 2018, 6:07 pm
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Frog. Heh, heh.
I saw what you did there.
#Post#: 8444--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: Alharacas Date: October 27, 2018, 8:39 pm
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Just in case you're interested:
- The welfare state gets abused a lot less than you might think.
Least of all by immigrants who tend to be ambitious and to want
a really good life, not one hanging around the fringes of
society. (Interestingly, those who are most vociferous about
immigrants/refugees' supposed abuse of the welfare system are
also those most likely to abuse it themselves.)
- In a few years (round about 2025, if I remember correctly)
there simply aren't going to be enough people to keep the
welfare system working, or to pay people their old age pensions.
A measly million or two of refugees/immigrants (among more than
80 million Germans) is barely going to make a dent in this.
- Official statistics claim that between a 5th and a quarter of
all Germans come from immigrant families. Now, this is a bit
ridiculous as it takes into account all of the people who moved
to the territories of the 2 German states at the end of WWII.
Still, over the course of the last 50 years, German society has
more or less successfully managed to absorb several million
immigrants, a sizeable portion of which were muslim, long before
the arrival of the Syrian refugees.
- There probably are a lot of unskilled workers among the Syrian
refugees. However, the two Syrian families I've worked with were
lower middle class, and the husbands/fathers were itching to
start working as soon as possible. In fact, I ran into one of
them the other day in the village. He proudly told me he'd found
a job. Where? At the local pig farm. I was all set to
sympathize, because, well, it's not quite a dream job for a
former vet's assistant, much less for one who's a devout muslim.
But no. "Ist Arbeit!" (It's work!) he said.
The Turkish family (political refugees) is middle class, the
father, a former journalist, is trying hard to get a German
drivers' license, hoping to get a job clearing the streets of
snow in winter, the teenage daughter hates that it's going to
take her that much longer to get to university (because she'll
need a German leaving certificate/Abitur first) and is trying to
cram as much German into her head and her days as will fit.
If any of them are indeed part of an invasion, I'm convinced
that those who organized it will find themselves sorely
disappointed by its effects.
#Post#: 8447--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: SHL Date: October 27, 2018, 10:49 pm
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Alharacas was talking about the major ethnic changes in Germany
over the last 50 years and I do know what she is talking about.
When I was working in Braunschweig in 1980, they didn`t have an
EU, but instead what I believe was called the EEC, the European
Economic Community. I think it was more a trade union than
anything else. They still had borders between all countries you
had to cross over when going from one country to the next, and
of course the Iron Curtain was still up. So, the entire East was
a very different place. There also weren’t very many immigrant
groups in Germany back then. The best way to put it was that it
was a very homogenous place. The only real immigrants who were
permanently there were descendants of or part of the
Gastarbeiter (guest worker) communities. Alharacas can explain
all that history better than I, but those were mostly men
originally, who usually had come from Turkey, Italy or the
former Yugoslavia to work, maybe Greece, I imagine on a
temporary basis, to fill in the need in the 50s and 60s for
manpower that was, to a large extent, lost during the war. The
idea was these people would stay awhile and then go back home
when they weren’t needed anymore. But, they didn`t. And, they
wound up bringing their families and they became the real first
wave of post-war immigrants to Germany. Now, with all the more
recent immigration, the entire population mix is noticeable
different, especially in the cities. But, I do remember it being
very different then. In those days I never saw a woman wearing a
headscarf, or anything like that, not even once. But, now, you
see that all the time.
I remember a rather amusing story I`ll never forget. When I was
working at the supermarket in Braunschweig, I rented a room from
a young couple out in this little town, Denstorf. I was 22, and
they were like around 26 or 27. The wife, Gertrude, worked at
the same store I did (which is how I got the room to rent) and
the husband, Wolfgang, worked at a men’s clothing store in town.
Gertrude was a nice young lady, blonde, who wore her hair up in
this bun, Wolfgang had a darker skin tone than the rest of us.
One day, I was sitting on the couch having a beer with him after
work, watching TV, clicking through the two kind of boring DDR
channels , 1 and 2, and then going to the much better West
German channels. Wolfgang told me that before he married “Trudi”
as he called her (only he was allowed to call her that) his
in-laws wanted to see his passport to prove to them he was a
German, because as he explained it, I could see he was a darker
sort of guy. His in-laws thought he might have been a Yugoslav
or something. I`ll never forget being a bit amused by that
story. I never paid any attention to stuff like
that coming from the US because we were used to a lot more
diversity or something I suppose. We had darker skinned Mexican
people in town, and others. So, we never gave it much thought.
I suppose now with the waves of refugees and Middle Eastern
people living now in Germany and all over Europe, the place has
become much more ethnically diverse than ever before. It seems
people are accepting it okay. The older generation is now
retired or now retiring, and they were folks like me back then,
in their 20s. But, there could be a future push back. They say
it`s on the rise, especially in the Eastern areas of the former
DDR, where they never had any real immigration until die Wende,
or Wiedervereinigung, the reunification.
#Post#: 8448--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: NealC Date: October 28, 2018, 12:02 am
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Alharacas I dont think Italy is reporting the same success as
Germany.
Yes in the next decade these new workers will support social
welfare for older Germans. But at what percentage will it
become a problem. Look at France, many of the immigrants even
speak the language but a permanent underclass is forming,
assimilation is lacking because immigrants are numerous enough
to form local enclaves, this is leading to instability.
I realize it is not popular to mention but Islam has a political
component that is ever present and will become ever more a
problem as their numbers grow.
Homogeneity is one of Europe's great strengths. Dont be so
quick to give it up.
#Post#: 8449--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: SHL Date: October 28, 2018, 12:45 am
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Sorry I got ahead of you Neal in the postings. I somehow started
to post something earlier in the day and didn´t finish it. So I
got in ahead of you.
I can tell you homogeneity was definitely the order of the day
back in 1980 in Europe. Very much so. I guess the same can`t
exactly be said of the US, but there is regional homogeneity of
sorts.
It will be interesting to see how all this plays out, but like
you said Islam does have a political component to it. I forgot
where I saw this, but there was a documentary I saw not long and
I think it had to do with someplace in Germany (for some reason
I can`t recall if this was the UK or Germany, but either one).
This band of thugs decided that they were going to declare a few
streets in some town in Germany or the UK under Sharia Law. So,
they’d go around calling themselves something like “Sharia law
patrols” hassling people drinking a beer in a bar, or telling
women who weren’t even Muslims to put on headscarves. All this
outrageous nonsense. Can you imagine the nerve of these people?
Then the local police and to go into break up these gangs of
bums. But they didn’t do anything to them. Then the same guys
would put on yellow outfits and go out and do the same thing the
next night. It was one of the craziest things you`d ever heard
of.
No one would have dared try anything like that in 1980.
#Post#: 8453--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: Alharacas Date: October 28, 2018, 7:11 am
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[quote author=NealC link=topic=551.msg8448#msg8448
date=1540702944]
Alharacas I dont think Italy is reporting the same success as
Germany.
Yes in the next decade these new workers will support social
welfare for older Germans. But at what percentage will it
become a problem. Look at France, many of the immigrants even
speak the language but a permanent underclass is forming,
assimilation is lacking because immigrants are numerous enough
to form local enclaves, this is leading to instability.
I realize it is not popular to mention but Islam has a political
component that is ever present and will become ever more a
problem as their numbers grow.
Homogeneity is one of Europe's great strengths. Dont be so
quick to give it up.
[/quote]
Italy - well, it wouldn't. For one thing, the Italian economy is
nowhere near as robust as its German counterpart. For another,
all of those boatloads of African refugees which don't land in
Spain, land in Italy - with most of them willy-nilly staying in
Italy.
France - I got the (perhaps unfounded) impression that there is
a sort of feeling of entitlement among many immigrants from the
former French colonies. A mindset that's largely absent among
immigrants in Germany, as far as I know.
Homogeneity - Neal, you're interested in military history. Even
the most cursory glance at any history book will tell you that
most of Europe has been a melting pot for at least 2 millennia.
I had a look and found this rather long and general article on
genetics and migration (in English):
HTML https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/theres-no-such-thing-pure-european-or-anyone-else
Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything in English relating to
the studies mentioned in this article:
HTML https://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/article1398825/Nur-wenige-Deutsche-sind-echte-Germanen.html
According to this, only 6% of Germans are of Germanic origin.
30% are Eastern European, 10% have Jewish ancestors, and what
the rest of our respective genomes is made up of is anybody's
guess: probably leftovers from the Roman, Hun, Ottoman, Swedish
and Napoleonic armies (not to mention those of the two World
Wars). Which in turn were a mishmash of soldiers/mercenaries
from all over the place.
And if Steven had travelled a little in Germany in 1980, to
Berlin, for instance, to Stuttgart, or to any of the big
industrial centers along the Rhine, not only would he have seen
plenty of women wearing headscarves, but he'd also have heard
plenty of people speaking German in a multitude of foreign
accents. :)
Apart from the now 3 million people of Turkish descent (half of
which have a Geman passport by now), let me just mention the
roughly 250.000 Persian immigrants (refugees from both before
and after the Islamic revolution), the roughly 100.000
Vietnamese (boat people on the one hand, contract workers who
stayed on on the other), the roughly 500.000 immigrants from
various Arabic countries (here long before the Syran refugees)
and the several million people from the territories of the
former USSR. Here's just one example of what I'm talking about:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan_Germans
Do read it, will you, in case you think "Oh, those were just
Germans returning to the Fatherland".
As to the "political dimension of Islam" - you do realize, don't
you, that saying that is like throwing not-particularly-devout
Protestants into the same ideological/faith-related pot as
devout Roman Catholics, Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons?
#Post#: 8456--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: NealC Date: October 28, 2018, 8:42 am
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Germany, because of its location, is certainly ethnically
diverse. Various migrations and invasions passed over Germany
for thousands of years. Part of the results of this is the late
date of German unification. But I am not talking bloodlines,
that is Nazism. I am talking language. And I think we are
agreed in this: language=culture. Especially native language.
I am not against immigration at all, and very diverse peoples
can join together. Immigration has historically been one of
America's great strengths. And perhaps you are right, Germany
is getting the cream of the crop of other countries. The
ambitious, the intellectual.
There is a place for immigrants who want to assimilate, who come
in portions that can be handled properly. The problems come
when the numbers get too high, when there is no desire for
assimilation, when the host country hands them the keys to the
welfare state, when they feel entitled.
Perhaps Germany has found the "sweet spot". Looking from
outside, we are wondering and concerned. Much of Europe has not
had the same success.
And yes I would lump the not so devout Protestants and Catholics
of Europe with other Christian groups. There will be
disagreement, but there is shared culture. Islam is very
different from other religions in this respect. It commands
certain political perspectives (most notably about women), and
demands that its followers institute Sharia as soon as
practicable.
In 19th Century US there was a movement to not allow Roman
Catholic immigration into the US because Catholics could not be
good citizens as they owed allegiance to the Pope in Rome. That
was rightfully overturned, and there is no religious test in US
politics. But Islam is different. Is it possible to be a good
Moslem without the political push to subjugate other beliefs?
#Post#: 8479--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: SHL Date: October 28, 2018, 7:53 pm
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I somewhat agree with Neal that a lot of the discussion here is
not so much about bloodlines as it is about language, and
culture.
I know my own experience means little, but I`m sure that
Alharacas is correct, that if I had gone to Berlin, or gotten
out of the fairly narrow area of Northern Germany I was in in
1980 I probably would have seen more of the immigration at the
time. My entire world at that time extended from Vechelde (this
fairly small town a little West of Densdorf, where I lived,
which itself was a lot smaller with one gas station, one church,
oh, and one Puff -the local brothel, can`t forget that) to
Braunschweig, and no further East than Helmstedt, where the
border was. Then there was Wolfenbüttel a little to the South
and Salzgitter, and that was it. That was pretty much my entire
world at the time. And, at least in this fairly small area, I
never saw any headscarves or signs of any immigrant communities.
But, if you go there today they`re not hard to find. So, things
have changed. But, I didn`t have a car back then and had to
work, so there was no time for travel anyway.
I knew that there were Turkish people someplace and others, but
there was no sense of a Muslim presence that I recall. I’m sure
if I had seen a headscarf I would have remembered it because it
would have struck me as so unusual. I only remember an Italian
guy who ran a pizza place next to our store. That was about it,
as far as a non-local presence, but that has nothing to do with
an influx of Muslim people today.
I did read both of Alharacas´articles, the English and German
ones, and they were quite interesting.
This is one of those hot button topics today. I don’t really
have strong opinions about it one way or the other. So,
I´ll be content to see Neal and Alharacas discuss it on the
sidelines and see how it plays out.
#Post#: 8488--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: NealC Date: October 29, 2018, 5:00 am
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Another point that is particularly aimed at Germany. Sometimes
I look at Germany and I still see so much self-flagellation
about the war. I suppose it was comforting to see during the
Cold War, but for the sake of future generations that stuff
needs to get further back in the rear view mirror.
But it remains to be asked, does the current state of welcoming
immigration have as part of its core a guilty reaction to the
racist policies of the Third Reich? Because I would not like
that to be true.
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