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DIR Return to: Questions about the Use of Language
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#Post#: 8357--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: Truman Overby Date: October 25, 2018, 7:22 am
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Right, Steve should learn Spanish if he wants something that's
useful. Especially in a law practice. The German language in
California is as useless as a screen door in a submarine. Or as
Steve would say, an Unterseeboot.
#Post#: 8375--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: SHL Date: October 25, 2018, 2:33 pm
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@ Neal,
Now, don’t put down old cars. They`re one of my passions too (as
long as they are not rusting away in front yards). There`s
nothing like the majestic beauty of a 1959 Cadillac with those
fins. We used to have one growing up as a kid and I thought it
was pretty cool. My mom let me stand up, or partly stand up, on
the front seat driving around town when I was 5 so I could see
out the window better. Safety first, Neal! Safety first. And
seat belts? Forget about it. Whoever heard of seat belts? I
think the front seat had them, as an option, but no one used
them.
And the theory behind the heavy metal construction was safety.
They thought if you built the cars with strong bodies they`d
hold up better in an accident, but the problem was all the
kinetic energy of a crash got transferred onto the occupants who
became human torpedoes. But, now we’ve got those darm crumple
zones that are like cardboard so that they take the impact in a
crash. Okay, great but you pay for it if you even tap anything
with the car. Bends, dings for the most minor of things and now
it`s a repair bill of thousands. Terrible.
#Post#: 8377--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: SHL Date: October 25, 2018, 2:51 pm
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@Sofia
Yes, I learned German 41 years ago (or started then) out of just
falling in love with the language and country, like you said. It
had nothing to do with utility. It really was a passion and
still is. Spanish would have been utilitarian, yes, but it never
really appealed to me. Neal said it sounded like mud to him.
Well, I won`t say that, but Spanish has about as much attraction
for me as mud. I don’t know why. Maybe the way it sounds or
something. It`s probably more resentment than anything else.
It`s a little annoying living in a place where people sort of
want you to learn their language to make their lives easier,
even though those same people live here themselves, in a place
where Spanish is not the native language. It sounds a little
backward to me.
#Post#: 8379--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: SHL Date: October 25, 2018, 3:08 pm
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@Jerry
Useless as a screen door on a submarine. That’s a pretty good
idiom and one I`ve never heard before.
I just commented on another thread pertaining to the
often-heard, but false belief, that English was oh so easy to
learn. It`s hard for me to say because I never learned English
(like a non-native speaker I mean- I don`t use the verb “learn”
with respect to native speakers acquiring their native language.
It’s just a misnomer). One only need look at Italki`s discussion
board and you`ll see how “easy” English is to learn, a
discussion board riddled with grammatical errors in English, and
sometimes unintelligible discussion topics. They do have some
really fine non-native English speakers, but I´ve noticed that
even their English can sound a but unnatural to me, a little
wooden, like it came out of a book. It`s very subtle and many
speak very well. But there’s a slight difference.
I mentioned that native speakers fall back much more on idioms,
which aren’t really heavily taught in language courses, and even
the really good non-native speakers either don`t know them or
don`t use them. I mean those advertising the C2 Cambridge
certificate and teach English on Italki. See how you said
“useless as a screen door on a submarine”? Even a top-rated C2
Cambridge certificated and really good speaking non-native would
never say that. In fact, there’s a lot of idioms they don’t even
know because they tend not to be taught.
That’s why I favor a more street style of speaking, rather than
sounding like you walked out of a textbook. It just adds an
authenticity to the speech is all.
#Post#: 8380--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: Aliph Date: October 25, 2018, 3:12 pm
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[quote author=SHL link=topic=551.msg8377#msg8377
date=1540497110]
@Sofia
Yes, I learned German 41 years ago (or started then) out of just
falling in love with the language and country, like you said. It
had nothing to do with utility. (...)
It a little annoying living in a place where people sort of
want you to learn their language to make their lives easier,
even though those same people live here themselves, in a place
where Spanish is not the native language. It sounds a little
backward to me.
[/quote]
I can understand your passion and I have trouble understanding
migrants who don’t even try a little bit to learn the local
language. I am totally puzzled by the Syrians I met here. There
is only one young guy who truly is learning French. His wife (27
years old) was offered a six month intensive course with French
and she refused. They are both middle class people from
Damascus. They never will go back unless the regime changes. The
same also for people who came from a rural context and are less
educated. I have the impression that they believe in a way that
learning the local language would be like betraying their roots.
Maybe it’s the same phenomenon with the immigrants from Latin
America in your country.
#Post#: 8381--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: SHL Date: October 25, 2018, 3:19 pm
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Sofia,
I don’t get the impression it's like betraying one`s roots, it`s
more like Spanish native speakers here, I think, just really
love their language. To them it´s just the “normal” way to
speak. And that`s a very natural human phenomenon thoughout the
world, especially for people coming from developing countries.
The utility of learning English for them here is abundant, as
well as the opportunities, but the more we accomodate them, the
less likely they`ll be motivated to learn. It`s a shame really.
I know if I moved suddenly to Peru, for example, the first thing
I`d do is enroll in a Spanish language class because it would
make my life so much easier. I wouldn’t want to go around hoping
everyone would speak Engish to me.
#Post#: 8382--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: Aliph Date: October 25, 2018, 3:43 pm
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Steven, maybe Latinos don’t see the need to make the effort
because they are so numerous. So they create a new Latino
environment in California.
If you would migrate to Peru you would be a lonely Gringo and
feel the need to speak the language of the authoctonous
population.
.... I just forgot. American and British expat women who
accompany their husbands to Europe where they work for big
companies like Philip Morris or Procter and Gamble aren’t better
than the Latinos migrants. They absolutely don’t learn a word of
French and move around in closed social circles. They put their
children in expensive private schools and rarely mingle with
locals.
#Post#: 8386--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: Truman Overby Date: October 25, 2018, 4:54 pm
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[quote author=Sofia link=topic=551.msg8382#msg8382
date=1540500203]
American and British expat women who accompany their husbands
to Europe where they work for big companies like Philip Morris
or Procter and **** aren’t better than the Latinos migrants.
They absolutely don’t learn a word of French and move around in
closed social circles. They put their children in expensive
private schools and rarely mingle with locals.
[/quote]
But how long do they stay in the country? And they aren't on
welfare, are they? Those are two things that make all of the
difference between Steve's example and yours.
I'm on your side though that they should learn some of the
language. It's mannerly if nothing else. These women are also
expected to mingle with the other wives. It's part of the
promotions game. The same game is played when they're living in
the US. The wife of the chairman of one of the car companies,
for example, wouldn't socialize with my wife.
The Latinos are a huge consumer of social welfare programs here
and it breeds resentment among us taxpayers. Most of them come
here for a better life on the taxpayer dime. We all know this
but no one wants to say it in public.
#Post#: 8389--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: SHL Date: October 25, 2018, 7:22 pm
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[quote author=Sofia link=topic=551.msg8382#msg8382
date=1540500203]
Steven, maybe Latinos don’t see the need to make the effort
because they are so numerous. So they create a new Latino
environment in California.
If you would migrate to Peru you would be a lonely Gringo and
feel the need to speak the language of the authoctonous
population.
.... I just forgot. American and British expat women who
accompany their husbands to Europe where they work for big
companies like Philip Morris or Procter and **** aren’t better
than the Latinos migrants. They absolutely don’t learn a word of
French and move around in closed social circles. They put their
children in expensive private schools and rarely mingle with
locals.
[/quote]
Yes, the Latino communities are large, especially in California,
and in the Los Angeles area in particular, they have formed
their own Spanish-speaking communities. Some of the cities are
majority Spanish-speaking and Latino and they have created a
fairly good-sized community where they can get by speaking only
Spanish if they like. The children are all dual Spanish/English
native speakers because they get the Spanish at home and English
with their friends and at school. I think that it would behoove
them to at least learn enough English to get by somewhat, and
show an interest in it for the sake of the country they live in,
but that seems to be lacking. It`s just showing respect for your
host (I agree with you about those American and British expats
living in a France and not learning a word of French. They
should learn enough French to be mannerly, as Jerry so well put
it. It just shows respect for their host country. They don’t
have to become experts at it, but just learn enough to get by).
And yeah, if I had to live in Peru for some reason (that would
be a bit of a let down, now wouldn’t it?), I would surely learn
Spanish. I`d do it out of respect for the country and its people
and to help me blend in as must as possible and not stand out
like the lonely Gringo. And, speaking their language would make
me warmly received. I`m sure of that. Plus, I doubt there are
many who speak much English down there anyway.
I got really jumped on once on Italki for bringing this up about
the Latino Spanish speakers, and many people used that lame
excuse, “Well, these are poor people. Maybe they can`t afford
it!” Excuse me, but I`m talking about people who own their own
homes, shop in modern and nice Spanish-speaking stores, and
spend plenty of money on things. Yes, they can afford a few
language lessons. Besides, I think they`re even offered for free
in some places. The Latino areas of LA are actually pretty nice
for the most part. They are not slums by any measure.´
#Post#: 8393--------------------------------------------------
Re: Orphan Languages
By: Aliph Date: October 26, 2018, 3:29 am
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@Jerry, expats working in international business don’t have
necessarily to move always very often. That’s for the juniors. I
met anglophone women, the typical upper class housewives and
dedicated mothers, who lived 20 years in the country without
knowing one word of French. But you are right they are not on
welfare.
@ SHL personally I also resent people who do not make any effort
to pick up the local language.
In the postwar economy there was a huge immigration in
Switzerland of Italian, Spanish and Portuguese workers. Even if
they still kept their own circles, culture, politics etc. they
mostly learned the local language. When I look at the results of
the integration of their children I feel a lot of admiration.
The son of my hairdresser, a very smart looking and clever
Portuguese lady who came here at the age of 16, is completing
his master in astrophysics . He has already different offers for
his PhD. The same happened to political refugees from Hungary in
1956, from Chekoslovakia in 1968 and Chile in 1973.
I am really worried about the integration of Syrian refugees. I
do not know if it is the trauma that keeps them apart or
something else.But the next generation will do well, I am sure
of it. Especially the girls who aren’t spoiled by their mothers
like the boys are , they will grab the opportunity to study and
have a better chance.
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