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#Post#: 7579--------------------------------------------------
Colloquialism vs Textbook Grammar
By: Allie Date: October 7, 2018, 11:00 am
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As you all know, I am a Martian and my native language is
Otherian dialect, but I do have some knowledge of Brazilian
Portuguese and I’ve said a couple of times that what we learn in
books, the Portuguese grammar, is quite different from the way
people actually use the language*.
It’s not that I am stubborn and illiterate, but from experience
I know that the way the average person speaks (Brazilian)
Portuguese differs widely from the textbooks and if you were to
apply the rules, it’d be as crazy as to say the natives don’t
speak proper Portuguese (actually there are some discussions
about this theme).
In this particular case, the difference occurs because Brazil
was a colony and adopted the language of the kingdom of
Portugal, but the language evolved with time, whereas the
grammar rules were kept the same.
So, I would like to know how different is the colloquial
language from the textbook version of your language. Is there a
wide difference? Is your language “colloquial” as Portuguese or
aren't there many differences?
*If you are not a native speaker, chances are the books and
guides you use to learn adopt colloquial language
#Post#: 7586--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colloquialism vs Textbook Grammar
By: Alharacas Date: October 7, 2018, 2:27 pm
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Oh dear, yes! Lots of grammar mistakes are tied to the various
dialects, like people from Berlin/Brandenburg always mixing up
mir and mich (sounds awful to everybody else), people from
certain parts of Bavaria changing word gender (with die Butter
and die Marmelade suddenly acquiring the masculine article der)
and lots of people all over the country (but particularly in the
south) confusing als and wie, to name but some examples.
Then there's something I've never seen mentioned in any textbook
(too complicated?), namely the difference between spoken and
written vocabulary. Even in an email to a friend, I wouldn't use
the verb kriegen (to get, to receive), although I constantly say
it. bekommen is kind of the neutral, textbook version of the
verb, but erhalten is what you'll read and write in any formal
text. Equally, we usually say schmeißen instead of werfen (to
throw),schicken instead of senden (to send) and anschauen oder
angucken instead of ansehen/betrachten (to look at; to watch).
I suspect this accounts for a lot of wailing along the lines of
"I can say things in German now, but I don't understand a thing
when I hear it spoken!" (Well, that and our tendency to drop
most of the vowels, together with lots of other faintly
inconvenient sounds, so that Was ist denn das? may turn into
/ssndəs/ or Ich habe ihn! into /chapm/)
What must be really frustrating for concientious learners is
when we turn around the word order after weil. And I don't think
it's any consolation that - listen closely! - we usually insert
a tiny little pause to show that yes, we do know we're about to
invert the grammatically correct order. Still, it should be Ich
habe ihm nicht geschrieben, weil ich keine Lust dazu hatte and
not Ich habe ihm nicht geschrieben, weil (pause) ich hatte keine
Lust dazu.
#Post#: 7593--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colloquialism vs Textbook Grammar
By: Aliph Date: October 7, 2018, 4:30 pm
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Thanks Alharacas, just learned that butter is feminine in
standard German. Here, near the Alps, we consider it a masculine
word! Probably because men bring the cows to pastures, milk them
and make butter and cheese.
#Post#: 7608--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colloquialism vs Textbook Grammar
By: SHL Date: October 7, 2018, 9:23 pm
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Erik,
Great discussion topic. In the US we call the formal written
language, what’s taught in schools, and what is written in books
and magazines, as the „literary standard.“ It differs a little,
but not significantly from the spoken language on the street. I
think it`s just because of the age of the US. With only a 250
year history or so, the language just hasn’t had enough time to
evolve all that much. In other countries it`s quite different.
Alharacas`comments are also excellent. There really is a
substantial difference in what is considered „proper“
Hochdeutsch, what they teach in school, and the way people in
Germany really speak. One good online translator is dict.cc, but
there’s a German guy on Italki who is studying professional
translating who doesn’t like it, saying because it`s
user-contributed or something, it´s unreliable. He might have a
point, in that I`ve seen some idioms translated to English,
where the English is just something weird I`ve never heard
before. But, other than a few problems like that, I`ve found it
to be pretty good. Plus, it identifies every noun or verb as
being (ugs.) , which is umgangssprachlich, or I guess
Ungangssprache, colloquial; (geh) for gehoben (gehobener
Sprachstil), elevated style; or it just leaves it blank, which
means it`s standard. Duden, which is kind of the authority, also
does the same but also has a category, Saloop, for loose or
sloppy style, or it will identify something as regional. I`ve
found you can pretty much get away with much of the standard
speech, but I much prefer the informal. I avoid the (geh) words
and verbs because I think they`re going to likely sound weird in
the spoken language. Kriegen is a great example. Everyone says
that, but you really don’t see it written very much (or I
haven’t anyway) and instead you get the stodgy old „bekommen“
instead in writing. I much prefer kriegen. Erhalten is sort of
an odd-ball of sorts and kind of reminds of what a lawyer might
say in court or what you might read someplace. But, this is
where you really need someone like Alharacas to tell you this
stuff, because even Duden won`t warn you of erhalten being a bit
elevated.
I tend to prefer words that are (ugs), or colloquial, because to
me, that’s how people really talk. I liked Alharacaś
example of „anschauen“ vs, „angucken“ (I just spell it
„ankucken“ because it`s pronounced that way, and I`ve seen it
written as such, now and again, but I know it`s suppose to be
written with a „g“, something I never could understand. This
might be the only example of German losing its traditional
phonetic way of spelling that I can think of). I always say
„kucken“ or „ankucken“, but the translators call this (ugs);
however, „anschauen“ is considered standard. (News to me
actually). My mom`s German housekeeping is from Bamberg and has
that heavy Franconian accent, and when I speak German with her,
she tells me not to say „ankucken“ but instead, say „anschauen“,
that „kucken“ sounds like a little kid talking. But, I know
that’s not true. I told her literally everyone says „kucken“ in
Germany. All I could ever figure was that it was a north versus
south difference, with ankucken being more northern, but I`m not
sure. Ankucken, or kucken, is all I ever heard in Braunschweig
when I worked over there. Same with „wegschmeißen“. No one ever
said „wegwerfen“, although „wegwerfen“ is easy enough to
understand.
So, I definitely go with the colloquial style myself because I
don’t want to sound like I learned German just out of a book.
It’s got to be natural sounding and real. And, there`s lots of
contractions they won`t teach you either, which I think is a
shame, like „biste, willste, haste, kannste“ where the „du“ for
the informal „you“ just gets sort of upsorbed into the verb. You
can do it with the formal „sie“ as well, where it likewise gets
absorbed into the verb, like „habense, wollense“ (I can`t recall
if these require an apostrophe- Alharacas will have to help me
out. She`s the one who knows). That’s how I talk because that’s
a lot of what I heard in Germany. But the teachers won`t teach
that too you, but should, in my opinion.
Alharacas` question of why they don`t teach you these
differences in class is a really good one, because I think when
they don`t, they do the students a disservice. Maybe they assume
they don’t have the time, or you’ll just figure it out when you
get over there. Because, that’s how I had to learn it.
Plus, I`ve noticed people in Germany are very protective of
their regionalisms. My German friend I stay with each summer
lives in Thüringen with her husband, and I like to tease her lot
and say „Uli. You sound more and more like a southern German
evertime I see you.“ (I much prefer the northern German way of
speaking). I spent a week in Friesland, in Jever, my favorite
area, last summer and came back saying „moin“ a lot and using
verbs like „klönen“ (sort of to chat), which are Northern style.
And, so I started saying moin a lot to my friend in Thüringen
and using some other northern German words. She understands it
all just fine, but won`t use the words. When I asked her why,
she said „Because, Steven, we are NOT in northern Germany!“ Her
husband, Hans, said „Steven likes the way they talk in the
north“ and my friend said, „Of course he likes the way they
speak in Friesland. It´s the closest German there is to
English.“ I think she’s right. She also said they like to cut
everything „short“ in sentences, in the north. Alharacas has to
answer that one. I don’t know.
In Berlin, I used „moin“ a lot in saying hello to people in
supermarkets and stores. No one ever said moin back, but instead
I just got the „Tag“ or something like that. Once in a while I`d
get a little grin in Berlin by saying moin to someone. But I
like the expression because it`s an all-day greeting. It`s just
like an hello. You can say it morning, noon and night. So, it´s
convenient.
Sorry for rambling on, but everyone knows how much I love the
German language as much as the people and culture. :)
#Post#: 7624--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colloquialism vs Textbook Grammar
By: Allie Date: October 8, 2018, 2:24 pm
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Alharacas and SHL.
I have no words to thank you and describe how interesting your
comments were.
I wasn’t expecting such a detailed answer.
Definitely these differences are not something you’d learn
straight away and, to be honest, I think you’d need to spend
some time in a German speaking country to assimilate the
differences.
I would like to answer you properly, but I still need some time
to let all this information sink in.
Thanks!
About dialects. Similarly to the videos about the different
accents in Spanish and English, I tried to find one in German
and there are a couple, but I think this one a good example
(even though it’s not about the German spoken in Germany)
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz2S9iggdzM&t=6s
#Post#: 7627--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colloquialism vs Textbook Grammar
By: Aliph Date: October 8, 2018, 5:35 pm
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I must say that the video about Swiss German isn’t so good.
Oberwalliser is really weirder than in the video! The German
dialect of Zürich spoken in the video is totally neutral and
banal .
I found a video about German dialects. I must say that besides
Hochdeutsch I didn’t understand anything.
HTML https://youtu.be/0cMRhmBfAQY
#Post#: 7628--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colloquialism vs Textbook Grammar
By: Aliph Date: October 8, 2018, 5:44 pm
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Wallisertütsch: de Puur und die Tütsche / the peasant and the
Germans
HTML https://youtu.be/G31fkap3GoI
Ich find’s Fideo huhüere guet!
This video is fu*ck*** good!
#Post#: 7944--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colloquialism vs Textbook Grammar
By: Alharacas Date: October 17, 2018, 10:05 am
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In case anybody's interested, here's a bit of the dialect I grew
up with:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRe1GlUv3TQ
Don't watch the whole boring thing, just go to 2:58
Translation of what the 2nd girl says in answer to the question
of where gril n°1 should put the flower pot (Dou dadierda da,
dou dadierda da aa, und dou dada da aa dadiern):
Da verdorrt/vertrocknet er Dir, da verdorrt er Dir auch, und da
würde (täte) er Dir auch verdorren.
Steven, it's just the contractions with "es" which get the
apostrophe, as in "Wie geht's?" (instead of "Wie geht es
(dir)?"). "haste/kannste" or "hamse/könnse" are just
transliterations, a bit like "gonna" or "wanna", i.e. never
written, unless you're keen to show exactly how somebody speaks.
Plus, these transliterations would only ever be approximately
correct (if slangy/sloppy) in the northern parts of Germany.
And yes, people will smile when they hear Moin in the South.
Which is a lot nicer, by the way, than getting a sharp Wenn ich
ihn sehe (the usual stupid response if you greet anyone from the
North with a friendly southern Grüß Gott).
But then, I suppose, if German lessons started out with all the
different regional greetings, most students would give up before
the first lesson was over. ;)
#Post#: 7957--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colloquialism vs Textbook Grammar
By: SHL Date: October 17, 2018, 1:52 pm
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Thanks Alharacas for your remarks.
I knew the apostrophe wasn’t used in biste, kannste, hamse,
because I read the words actually written in Günter Grass´s Katz
und Maus when he was quoting some girl from Danzig or someplace
up north during the war. In fact, I`ve noticed German really has
an aversion to apostrophes in general (Johns Buch for example)
unlike English which is an overkill on apostrophes. But I don`t
think I´ve seen the words, biste, kannste, willste really ever
written anywhere. But I use them all the time. When I returned
from Braunschweig, my University German professor from Hamburg,
who was a very educated, prim and proper lady born and raised in
Hamburg, commented “Steven really likes German slang” (I`ve
forgotten the exact words, which were in German) but that´s all
I ever heard up there so I just started talking like that.
That’s what you just get used do. And I didn’t know that “biste,
kannste, willste” is mostly sloppy northern speech, not
southern. Thanks for pointing that out, because even in the
South I talk to people like that. The people in the South always
understand me, but God knows what they are thinking when they
hear this! It just sounds normal to me. Well, I did have a
teenager, while I was coming out of a Media Markt in Jena last
July, say, “Alter. Haste ne Kippe?” I told him I didn’t smoke.
So, ah, no.
You mentioned the old “Wenn ich ihn sehe” reply to the southern
“Grüß Gott” greeting in the the South. It made me laugh because
my lawyer friend in Thüringen always says “Wenn ich ihn sehe” in
reply to someone saying “ Grüß Gott” to her, because she
absolutely despises that greeting. And she’s a pretty
strong-willed woman. So she says “Grüß dich” instead or just
“Hallöchen.” She was raised in Offenbach, father from Berlin,
but was taught by the father to speak “pure” German, the real
Hochdeutsch, and avoid regionalisms. She was or is Protestant,
her father an atheist, so maybe the Grüß Gott just sounded too
Catholic to her. It always seemed a little rude to me to answer
someone in the South saying Grüß Gott with “wenn ich ihn sehe”,
but at the sametime this greeting seemed unnatural to me, since
I spent all my time in the North, so I would just smile and say
Moin back or just Tag. I did get a lot of smiles from people in
Berlin saying Moin, but no one ever said it back. So, I think
Germans are really stuck on their regionalisms. But, in
Friesland, Moin is just something everyone says. Thanks again
for your comments.
#Post#: 7963--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colloquialism vs Textbook Grammar
By: Aliph Date: October 17, 2018, 3:17 pm
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If you go a little bit further South and cross the border to
Switzerland, regional particularities are even more evident. In
Zürich they greet you with a „Grüezi“ and 130 km from there with
a „Grüessech“.
And too make fun of Germans is an old national sport.
HTML https://youtu.be/_eyPheYTBxM
Jä, Grüezi wohl, Frau Stirnimaa
Säged Si
Wie läbed Si
Wie sind Si ä so draa?
Jä, Grüezi wohl, Frau Stirnimaa
Säged Si
Wie läbed Si
Wie gaht's däm ihrem Maa?
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