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#Post#: 4733--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: KingSlayer
Date: August 7, 2018, 3:03 am
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--- Quote from: Alharacas link ---
>
> Okay, this is a bit more of what wikipedia has to say:
> Some of the differences that mark Alevis from mainstream
Muslims are the use of cemevi halls rather than mosques; worship
ceremonies that feature music and dancing, and where both women
and men participate;[13] non-observance of the five daily salat
prayers and prostrations (they only bow twice in the presence of
their spiritual leader), Ramadan, and the Hajj (considering true
pilgrimage to be an internal one).[5] Alevis have some links
with Twelver Shia Islam (such as importance of the Ahl al-Bayt,
the day of Ashura, the Mourning of Muharram, commemorating
Karbala), but do not follow taqlid towards a Marja' "source of
emulation". Some practices of the Alevis are based on Sufi
elements of the Bektashi[4] tariqa.[14][15]
--- End Quote ---
That is nonsense. Alevis, like all other Muslims, do go to
Mosques. The concept of Cemevi is the same as Khaniqa and
Tekkiye in Shi'ite Islam. It has nothing to do with being
against going to Mosques or anything.
--- Quote ---
> According to scholar Soner Cagaptay, Alevism is a "relatively
unstructured interpretation of Islam".[16] Journalist Patrick
Kingsley states that for some self-described Alevi, their
religion is "simply a cultural identity, rather than a form of
worship".[5]
--- End Quote ---
Yes, because it is not their religion. But rather something they
have earned from proximity to the Safavid empire.
--- Quote ---
> Many teachings are based on an orally transmitted tradition,
traditionally kept secret from outsiders (but now widely
accessible). Alevis commonly profess the Islamic shahada, but
adding "Ali is the friend of God".
--- End Quote ---
Because this is what all Shi'ite people do. This is the core of
Shi'ite ideology.
--- Quote ---
> The basis for Alevis' most distinctive beliefs is found in the
Buyruks (compiled writings and dialogues of Sheikh Safi-ad-din
Ardabili (eponym of the Safavi order), Ja'far al-Sadiq (the
Sixth Imam), and other worthies). Also included are hymns
(nefes) by figures such as Shah Ismail or Pir Sultan Abdal,
stories of Hajji Bektash and other lore.
--- End Quote ---
If you had read this part instead of just copying and pasting,
you wouldn't have written the rest of the text.
Sheikh Safi-ad-din Ardabili (eponym of the Safavi order): Safavi
is the same as Safavid. Safavid is the correct spelling in
English. Where is Ardabil? In Iran.
Ja'far al-Sadiq: the Sixth Imam of Shi'ite people.
Shah Ismail? The founder of the Safavid empire as I told you.
--- Quote ---
> As to where these other influences might have come from,
there's this:
> According to one source, "little research" has been done on
the religion or ethnic and historical background of the Alevis,
but what is available, suggests that they are "of peoples
predating the Turkish invasion of Anatolia".
--- End Quote ---
This is nonsense.
--- Quote ---
> According to John Shindeldecker "Alevis are proud to point out
that they are monogamous, Alevi women worship together with men,
Alevi women are free to dress in modern clothing, Alevi women
are encouraged to get the best education they can, and Alevi
women are free to go into any occupation they choose.
>
> In the view of Australian anthropologist Sevgi Kilic, while
Alevi women do not experience gender segregation in the private
and public domain they are subject to traditional male values
about women's sexuality and constructed within the honor/shame
paradigm. This ethnography is the first on Alevi women in Turkey
and argues that Alevi identity is complex, diverse and rich in
its theory and practice.
--- End Quote ---
Again, this has nothing to do with Islam. As I told you, the
core values of Islam are unchangeable. Regardless of whether
they are actually practiced or not.
--- Quote ---
> According to Kilic, while rural Alevi women subscribe to
traditional conservative views about women's status in the
family, these ideas are rapidly changing within an urban
environment. Alevi women are not required to wear a headscarf or
other bodily coverings. According to Kilic this is because Alevi
identity is very much focused on the internal rather than the
external representation and covering women's hair or concealing
the female body in and of itself cannot legitimize women's
moral, social, political and economic worth. Thus an unveiled
Alevi woman cannot impugn her honour or her communities'. Alevi
women's bodies are what Kilic calls paradoxically 'neutral' and
acts as an "ideology of difference."
--- End Quote ---
And again, this has nothing to do with Islam or the Alavi
ideology.
--- Quote ---
> Now, am I wrong in concluding that however many times some
religious authority may have declared Alevism as part of Shia
Islam, the actual practice of Alevism would be considered very
much against the rules of Shia Islam as practiced in Iran (or in
Syria by the Alawites)?
>
--- End Quote ---
Please next time you want to discuss Shia Islam, first make sure
that you have enough knowledge about the Middle East to be able
to show Middle Eastern countries on a map. You're clearly
ignorant about this stuff and it is funny that you're still
discussing it. Most of what you wrote about has nothing to do
with the Alevi ideology. The bottom line is:
--- Quote ---
> Aleviler instead is being frequently used to represent all the
Shi'a Muslim sects in Turkish language.
--- End Quote ---
End of the story.
#Post#: 4734--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: KingSlayer
Date: August 7, 2018, 3:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Alharacas link ---
>
> Oh, and by the way, please don't underestimate Mani's
influence - huge swathes of the western European population
adhered to a version of Christianity heavily influenced by his
teachings until the Middle Ages, followed by horrific crusades
to exterminate them. In fact, all of the orthodox fathers of the
christian church start foaming at the mouth at the mere mention
of Manichaeism - so much so that that any sceptic worth his salt
automatically becomes interested in Mani's ideas. :D
> One of the books I kept re-reading as a teenager, "Demian" by
Hermann Hesse, propagates Manichaeism/Gnosticism.
> And I've just read an early 20th century novel, "Das Leben
meiner Mutter" by Oskar Maria Graf, in which the author claims
to be from a family of Manichaean Christians.
>
--- End Quote ---
One of the books you kept reading as a teenager propagated
Manichaeism but you didn't learn enough to know that Mani was an
Iranian prophet living in the Sassanid empire almost 4 centuries
before the invention of Islam in Arabia and he didn't even know
that such a religion even existed. lol As I said, get a map:
[center]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/ManichaeismSpread.jpg/1280px-ManichaeismSpread.jpg[/center]
Plus, what has influenced Europe more than anything was
Mithraism. Manichaeism was barely influential and it soon lost
its power.
#Post#: 4735--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: KingSlayer
Date: August 7, 2018, 3:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NealC link ---
>
> No, no, no on the Trigonometry, I looked that up (because I
had no idea) -- there are four types of Trigonometry, Analytic
is one of them:
>
HTML https://sciencing.com/types-trigonometry-8652780.html
>
> It sounds like you want to become some sort of superhero -
might make a good comic book. But if you want to win that prize
you best learn how to spell it - Nobel :-)
>
> As for the girl, she is Alevis - to you the same as Shia, so
no worries!
>
--- End Quote ---
There is no such thing as Analytic Trigonometry. Like I said,
Analytic Geometry exists. Analytic Trigonometry is just a made
up term.
By the time I'm a superhero, I have already made Persian the
lingua franca of the world. So, you'll spell Nobel in anyway
that I please and in Persian. So, what difference does it make?
:P
Nope. You should've mentioned it earlier. Now it's too late. You
still got a long way to improve your trolling skills, Neal.
#Post#: 4736--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: Alharacas
Date: August 7, 2018, 3:39 am
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You mean the fact that Mani was long dead by the time Islam
became a religion means that his teachings can't have had any
influence? Interesting.
#Post#: 4737--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: KingSlayer
Date: August 7, 2018, 4:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Alharacas link ---
>
> You mean the fact that Mani was long dead by the time Islam
became a religion means that his teachings can't have had any
influence? Interesting.
>
--- End Quote ---
Did you already give up on replying to the rest of the post? lol
As I said, and I don't need to reiterate, Manichaeism was fairly
popular long before Islam during the Sassanid empire because
King Shapur I allowed Mani to spread his religion throughout the
Persian empire. However, as the Zoroastrian clergy gained more
and more influence in the Sassanid court in following years,
Manichaeism lost most of its influence, financial resources and
its powerful supporters in the system. It literally became a
dead religion. You don't see a follower of Mani these days. Do
you?
Zoroastrianism is at least several thousand years older than
Manichaeism and it still has over hundreds of thousands of
followers.
And I do not see how Mani's ideas relate to Sufism and
Safaviyya. Enlighten me by your vast knowledge of the history of
the Middle East through jumping from this article to that
article on Wikipedia.
#Post#: 4738--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: Alharacas
Date: August 7, 2018, 5:09 am
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You must have confused me with someone else, I think.
When someone demonstrates his superior knowledge in such an
impeccably gentlemanly, polite, patient way as you consistently
do - logic aside - it's one of my iron rules to give in to them
most gracefully. (gives a Baklava-sweet smile and bows out)
#Post#: 4739--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: KingSlayer
Date: August 7, 2018, 5:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Alharacas link ---
>
> You must have confused me with someone else, I think.
> When someone demonstrates his superior knowledge in such an
impeccably gentlemanly, polite, patient way as you consistently
do - logic aside - it's one of my iron rules to give in to them
most gracefully. (gives a Baklava-sweet smile and bows out)
>
--- End Quote ---
Humor like the history of the Middle East is not your strong
suit, Suzanne. You're just too serious for that. :P
What happened is that I told you Alevi, Alawite, Alavi all mean
the same thing: followers of Ali (the first Imam). And hence,
they are Shi'ite by almost the very definition of Shi'ite
ideology. I even showed you a fact that "Aleviler instead is
being frequently used to represent all the Shi'a Muslim sects in
Turkish language." which is in accordance with what I told you
about Shi'ite Islam. However, you arrogantly kept on insisting
that I'm wrong while not being able to respond to any of the
things I mentioned because you didn't have the knowledge. That's
despite the fact that I have had years of compulsory history
courses during my school years and I am actually from the Middle
East and I live in the birthplace of most of the names you
mentioned: Manichaeism, Safaviyya, Sufism and the related stuff.
If someday I commented on something about the German culture and
Catholicism as practiced in Germany and you tried to correct me
but I insisted that you were wrong by pointing out random,
nonsensical texts from Wikipedia and quoting the people I know,
feel free to do the same.
#Post#: 4740--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: NealC
Date: August 7, 2018, 5:40 am
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If you are going to argue from a personal, religious point of
view the only people who believe certain things are really
Moslems than I have no argument for you and no desire to do it.
In that sense I will leave religion alone.
But sitting outside this argument I see you citing history that
you are familiar with due to long years of study and Alharacas
citing actual sources. I would imagine by citing sources she is
basically telling you your education might be wrong or lacking
in some areas. And frankly in religious education it makes
perfect sense that it might have been taught from a point of
view, skirting some of the facts. I would ask for some sources
for your argument on this subject but the topic doesn't really
grab me personally.
Oh, in case you want to meet the woman I described (she sounds
rather nice!) you might want to brush up on your Analytic
Trigonometry. I realize in your educational experience such a
thing does not exist, but just in case you can accept that
things might exist outside of what you already know I have
linked below the 11th Edition of the most common textbook on
subject. It is available on Amazon.
HTML https://www.amazon.com/Analytic-Trigonometry-Applications-Raymond-Barnett/dp/0470648058/ref=mt_hardcover?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1533637185
#Post#: 4741--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: KingSlayer
Date: August 7, 2018, 5:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NealC link ---
>
> If you are going to argue from a personal, religious point of
view the only people who believe certain things are really
Moslems than I have no argument for you and no desire to do it.
I will leave religion alone.
>
> But sitting outside this argument I see you citing history
that you are familiar with due to long years of study and
Alharacas citing actual sources. I would imagine by citing
sources she is basically telling you your education might be
wrong or lacking in some areas. And frankly in religious
education it makes sense that it might have been taught from a
point of view, skirting some of the facts.
>
> Oh, in case you want to meet the woman I described (she sounds
rather nice!) you might want to brush up on your Analytic
Trigonometry. I realize in your educational experience such a
thing does not exist, but just in case you can accept that
things might exist outside of what you already know I have
linked below the 11th Edition of the most common textbook on
subject. It is available on Amazon.
>
>
HTML https://www.amazon.com/Analytic-Trigonometry-Applications-Raymond-Barnett/dp/0470648058/ref=mt_hardcover?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1533637185
>
--- End Quote ---
I am not arguing from a personal, religious point of view. And
Moslem is an old-fashioned spelling. Nowadays it's spelled
Muslim. By the way, I realized that the American Society of
Civil Engineers uses "Noble" as the correct spelling for Alfred
Nobel's name. I'm just saying this as an interesting fact.
And what exactly made you think that she's citing actual
sources? Since when Wikipedia is an actual source? Plus, if
Wikipedia is an actual source, most of the things I cited in my
posts in response to her are from Wikipedia too. So, what does
make her citations actual while my citations from the very same
pages are not? lol
Thanks. Analytic Trigonometry does not exist and is a made up
title. And the categorization of trigonometry that link you sent
gives is far from extensive and accurate and the categories
overlap to a great extent. Of course, your knowledge of
mathematics is as little as Alharacas's knowledge of the history
of the Middle East. But feel free to argue if you want to.
#Post#: 4743--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: NealC
Date: August 7, 2018, 6:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Different prize same name! :-)
HTML https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Noble_Prize
Amazing the first name being the same as well.
Third paragraph.
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