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#Post#: 4718--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: NealC
Date: August 6, 2018, 7:06 pm
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But it sounds like the Alevis are Shia Muslims but with some
other things mixed in. It makes sense that even if there was a
common root, being so far apart (and often isolated) could lead
to differences. Sort of like the difference in
expression/experience between Irish and Italian Catholicism.
They don't accept Sharia as the word of God. So that means they
only accept the recorded word of Mohammed, and the other books
(the hadith?) as theology/religous instruction but not
Scripture.
#Post#: 4720--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: KingSlayer
Date: August 6, 2018, 7:16 pm
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--- Quote from: NealC link ---
>
> But it sounds like the Alevis are Shia Muslims but with some
other things mixed in. It makes sense that even if there was a
common root, being so far apart (and often isolated) could lead
to differences. Sort of like the difference in
expression/experience between Irish and Italian Catholicism.
>
> They don't accept Sharia as the word of God. So that means
they only accept the recorded word of Mohammed, and the other
books (the hadith?) as theology/religous instruction but not
Scripture.
>
--- End Quote ---
All Muslims, no exception, believe that Qur'an is pure, has
never been modified or edited at any time in history and they
believe that it is the main source for practicing Islam
according to God's words. There's no difference between Sunni
and Shi'ite Islam in this regard. Most laws of Sharia exist in
the text of the Qur'an and all Muslim scholars believe in those.
No Muslim scholar can refute or cast doubt on something that has
been written in the Qur'an. It's like the most basic thing in
Islam. You can't be a Christian if you think that Jesus was a
bastard. Can you?
Some Shi'ite people and Sunni scholars also believe in something
called Hadith. Hadith is like a tale about good deeds or
suggestions and recommendations by Muhammad or other holy people
in Islam. Shi'ite scholars and Sunni scholars do not agree on
this stuff. Even among Shi'ite scholars in the same sect or
Sunni scholars in the same sect there are disagreements over the
authenticity of a Hadith and whether it means what it means or
not.
Now, Alevis, Alawites and Alavis are all the same group of
people as their names suggest: "Followers of Ali". Their
ideology comes from the Safavid empire in Iran, established by
Shah Ismail I. They have also been heavily influenced by Iranian
traditions like Nowruz, Ashura and other stuff.
#Post#: 4721--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: NealC
Date: August 6, 2018, 7:26 pm
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You are indeed our resident expert on Islam, but it looks like
Alharacas has found a source that disagrees with you - these
Alevis in Syria and Turkey might have come from the Shia root,
but as it developed over time and distance they incorporated
other elements. Is that impossible?
#Post#: 4722--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: KingSlayer
Date: August 6, 2018, 7:39 pm
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--- Quote from: NealC link ---
>
> You are indeed our resident expert on Islam, but it looks like
Alharacas has found a source that disagrees with you - these
Alevis in Syria and Turkey might have come from the Shia root,
but as it developed over time and distance they incorporated
other elements. Is that impossible?
>
--- End Quote ---
And what are those other elements exactly?
We have hundreds of national dishes in Iran that have different
variants in different regions of Iran. Does that make these
dishes different? As far as I know, it's the same in Italy with
their dishes. So, what does make Alevism not a part of Shi'ite
Islam if they're followers of the Twelve Imams?
Half of those words in the Wikipedia that Alharacas has quoted
are strongly linked to the Safavid Persia or the Sassanid Persia
(which had nothing to do with Islam by the way). Manichaeism,
Dervish, Qizilbash, Shah Ismail I (the found of the Safavid
empire), Nowruz, Sufism. What other elements are you talking
about exactly? Precisely?
#Post#: 4723--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: KingSlayer
Date: August 6, 2018, 7:50 pm
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From Shia Islam in Turkey:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Turkey#Shia_Islam
--- Quote ---
> Shia Islam
> Main articles: Athnā‘ashariyyah and Theology of Twelvers
> Alevis in Turkey
>
> Twelver branch of Shia Islam Muslim population of Turkey is
composed of Ja'fari aqidah and fiqh, Batiniyya-Sufism aqidah of
Maymūn’al-Qāddāhī fiqh of the Alevīs,
and Cillī aqidah of Maymūn ibn Abu’l-Qāsim
Sulaiman ibn Ahmad ibn at-Tabarānī fiqh of the
Alawites,[22][23] who altogether constitutes nearly one third of
the whole population of the country. (An estimate for the
Turkish Alevi population varies between Seven and Eleven
Millions.[8][24] Over 75% of the population, on the other hand,
overwhelmingly constitute Maturidi aqidah of the Hanafi fiqh and
Ash'ari aqidah of the Shafi'i fiqh of the Sunni followers.)
>
> Unlike the common usage of the term "Shi'a" in other
languages, Aleviler instead is being frequently used to
represent all the Shi'a Muslim sects in Turkish language.
Furthermore, the term Kızılbaş in the history was
used pejoratively for all Shi'ites in Anatolia.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 4725--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: NealC
Date: August 6, 2018, 9:22 pm
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Oh good. The forum is now running advertisements to meet Moslem
Singles. Perhaps I should click and find a nice girl for KS :-)
Oh here's one:
"Vivacious, nubile, cheerleader type desperately seeking Iranian
mathematician for cuddles, walks on the beach, and long, sweaty,
nights of Analytic Trigonometry. Calvin and Hobbes fan a plus!"
#Post#: 4726--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: KingSlayer
Date: August 6, 2018, 9:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NealC link ---
>
> Oh good. The forum is now running advertisements to meet
Moslem Singles. Perhaps I should click and find a nice girl for
KS :-)
>
> Oh here's one:
> "Vivacious, nubile, cheerleader type desperately seeking
Iranian mathematician for cuddles, walks on the beach, and long,
sweaty, nights of Analytic Trigonometry. Calvin and Hobbes fan
a plus!"
>
--- End Quote ---
Nah. I'm actually becoming a Baha'i this month. I want to
infiltrate Mossad, gain the benefits of a person under
suppression in its home country, win a Noble Prize in Medicine
and Physiology, or maybe a Noble Prize in Literature, or a
Fields Medal in Mathematics too just because I'm a refugee and
rip off European and Americans tax payers for being a special
snowflake.
By the way, it's Analytic Geometry, not Analytic Trigonometry.
:P And you didn't mention that she's a Shi'ite Muslim. Try
better next time :P
#Post#: 4727--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: NealC
Date: August 6, 2018, 11:55 pm
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No, no, no on the Trigonometry, I looked that up (because I had
no idea) -- there are four types of Trigonometry, Analytic is
one of them:
HTML https://sciencing.com/types-trigonometry-8652780.html
It sounds like you want to become some sort of superhero - might
make a good comic book. But if you want to win that prize you
best learn how to spell it - Nobel :-)
As for the girl, she is Alevi - to you the same as Shia, so no
worries!
#Post#: 4728--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: Alharacas
Date: August 7, 2018, 12:09 am
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Okay, this is a bit more of what wikipedia has to say:
Some of the differences that mark Alevis from mainstream Muslims
are the use of cemevi halls rather than mosques; worship
ceremonies that feature music and dancing, and where both women
and men participate;[13] non-observance of the five daily salat
prayers and prostrations (they only bow twice in the presence of
their spiritual leader), Ramadan, and the Hajj (considering true
pilgrimage to be an internal one).[5] Alevis have some links
with Twelver Shia Islam (such as importance of the Ahl al-Bayt,
the day of Ashura, the Mourning of Muharram, commemorating
Karbala), but do not follow taqlid towards a Marja' "source of
emulation". Some practices of the Alevis are based on Sufi
elements of the Bektashi[4] tariqa.[14][15]
According to scholar Soner Cagaptay, Alevism is a "relatively
unstructured interpretation of Islam".[16] Journalist Patrick
Kingsley states that for some self-described Alevi, their
religion is "simply a cultural identity, rather than a form of
worship".[5]
Many teachings are based on an orally transmitted tradition,
traditionally kept secret from outsiders (but now widely
accessible). Alevis commonly profess the Islamic shahada, but
adding "Ali is the friend of God".
The basis for Alevis' most distinctive beliefs is found in the
Buyruks (compiled writings and dialogues of Sheikh Safi-ad-din
Ardabili (eponym of the Safavi order), Ja'far al-Sadiq (the
Sixth Imam), and other worthies). Also included are hymns
(nefes) by figures such as Shah Ismail or Pir Sultan Abdal,
stories of Hajji Bektash and other lore.
As to where these other influences might have come from, there's
this:
According to one source, "little research" has been done on the
religion or ethnic and historical background of the Alevis, but
what is available, suggests that they are "of peoples predating
the Turkish invasion of Anatolia".
And there's that bit about women:
According to John Shindeldecker "Alevis are proud to point out
that they are monogamous, Alevi women worship together with men,
Alevi women are free to dress in modern clothing, Alevi women
are encouraged to get the best education they can, and Alevi
women are free to go into any occupation they choose.
In the view of Australian anthropologist Sevgi Kilic, while
Alevi women do not experience gender segregation in the private
and public domain they are subject to traditional male values
about women's sexuality and constructed within the honor/shame
paradigm. This ethnography is the first on Alevi women in Turkey
and argues that Alevi identity is complex, diverse and rich in
its theory and practice.
According to Kilic, while rural Alevi women subscribe to
traditional conservative views about women's status in the
family, these ideas are rapidly changing within an urban
environment. Alevi women are not required to wear a headscarf or
other bodily coverings. According to Kilic this is because Alevi
identity is very much focused on the internal rather than the
external representation and covering women's hair or concealing
the female body in and of itself cannot legitimize women's
moral, social, political and economic worth. Thus an unveiled
Alevi woman cannot impugn her honour or her communities'. Alevi
women's bodies are what Kilic calls paradoxically 'neutral' and
acts as an "ideology of difference."
Now, am I wrong in concluding that however many times some
religious authority may have declared Alevism as part of Shia
Islam, the actual practice of Alevism would be considered very
much against the rules of Shia Islam as practiced in Iran (or in
Syria by the Alawites)?
#Post#: 4729--------------------------------------------------
Re: Funny titbit about Turkish culture
DIR By: Alharacas
Date: August 7, 2018, 12:28 am
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Oh, and by the way, please don't underestimate Mani's influence
- huge swathes of the western European population adhered to a
version of Christianity heavily influenced by his teachings
until the Middle Ages, followed by horrific crusades to
exterminate them. In fact, all of the orthodox fathers of the
christian church start foaming at the mouth at the mere mention
of Manichaeism - so much so that that any sceptic worth his salt
automatically becomes interested in Mani's ideas. :D
One of the books I kept re-reading as a teenager, "Demian" by
Hermann Hesse, propagates Manichaeism/Gnosticism.
And I've just read an early 20th century novel, "Das Leben
meiner Mutter" by Oskar Maria Graf, in which the author claims
to be from a family of Manichaean Christians.
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