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       #Post#: 19355--------------------------------------------------
       Cursive Handwriting
       By: Nikola Date: September 7, 2019, 1:00 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Is cursive handwriting still taught in schools in your country?
       If not, was it taught when you went to school?
       The majority of schools in my country are still using it. Some
       are experimenting with print handwriting but it's very
       controversial because according to some, cursive handwriting has
       a positive impact on the following areas of development:
       Hand-eye coordination
       Sensory-motor coordination
       Thinking memory
       Dynamically engages both hemispheres of the brain
       Visual recognition requirements create a broader repertoire of
       letter representation
       How much of an impact it really has, I am not sure. Some people
       say it's beautiful. Let me tell you something. It is not
       beautiful when you're a school kid. You're producing something
       extremely ugly, extremely slowly. I think that calligraphy is
       beautiful, it's a real art form and well worth learning if
       you're into it, but having to produce something between
       calligraphy and what looks like normal letters in order to be
       able to take notes during the lesson... I've always found that a
       bit daunting. When I saw in the UK that the kids didn't have to
       do it (not sure if it was because they had special needs or if
       that's the standard... SuKi?), I thought why do we have to learn
       it, then?
       This is what the Czech cursive looks like:
       [img width=300
       height=151]
  HTML http://typomil.com/typofilos/wp-content/obrazky/normalizovana-lat-ceska-big.gif[/img]
       And in actual sentences:
       [img width=300
       height=185]
  HTML http://typomil.com/typofilos/wp-content/obrazky/normalizovana-lat-ces2-big.gif[/img]
       Where do you stand? Is it impractical and outdated or worth
       keeping?
       #Post#: 19357--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cursive Handwriting
       By: SHL Date: September 7, 2019, 2:02 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Yes, Nikola, it was taught when I was a little kid in the 1960s.
       I started kindergarten in 1963 and cursive handwriting was
       beginning to be taught, as I recall, when we were taught how to
       write in the first, second and third grades, so that would have
       been starting around 1964 or 1965 and continuing to about 1966
       for me maybe?
       We had all the little charts, which looked very similar to the
       chart you used we were supposed to follow and practice.
       I always had trouble with it and never really liked it.
       Especially certain letters, like G, S, Z. It all seemed like a
       lot of unnecessary work to me.
       But, by around 1970 there was a liberalizing „modern“ teaching
       method introduced whereby certain skills were de-emphathized.
       One of those was teaching cursive handwriting. US educational
       philosophy really did a turn around in the 1970s and I think
       that cursive handwriting just stopped being taught, because no
       one used it much.
       I adopted a sort of mix between cursive and non-cursive
       handwriting. Some letters were cursive, the easy ones that had
       utility (allowed me to write faster) and I used non-cursive for
       the letters that I found too hard and awkward to use, like the
       capital G, S and Z, and many others (Y probably too).  it just
       seemed really stupid to me (at least in English) to write in
       cursive, so I ceased trying to use it in most words and created
       my own style.
       Now, my handwriting is atrocious.
       When my mom was in school, cursive handwriting was really
       pounded into kids‘ heads (that was the 1930s for her) and she
       has today beautiful handwriting.
       I heard on a comedy/drama TV series, Better Call Saul once,
       where the lead actor says to a group of older people, „Ah,
       beautiful handwriting! A lost art!“ I got a laugh out of that
       because it is so true.
       None of my younger clients (like those under 40) ever write in
       cursive. I don’t think they even know what it is, due all to the
       change in teaching styles which became popularized after around
       1970.
       As to my person opinion on it? I don’t have strong feelings one
       way or the other, but it did almost universally create beautiful
       handwriting in older people who had it drilled into their heads.
       Younger people have terrible handwriting which is often barely
       legible.
       I think some kind of mix between what is useful in writing
       quickly (certain letters in cursive) and using non-cursive where
       it‘s faster is the best style.
       #Post#: 19358--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cursive Handwriting
       By: NealC Date: September 7, 2019, 2:39 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Years ago good penmanship and spelling were the signs of an
       educated mind.  I remember cursive being the bane of my
       existence in 3rd and 4th grade until I finally rebelled and
       except for my signature, I refused to use it.  All my teachers
       scolded me and told me I would never get into college, the
       professors would laugh me out of the school, etc...  I just
       refused to change.  Frankly I was surprised I got away with it.
       Cursive has now become useless, most millennials I know cannot
       even read it.  I am very lucky that on a whim (and to meet
       girls) I took a typing class in High School.  THAT got me
       through college.  What they need to do is teach the kids
       computer skills and keyboarding (typewriting).  My kids can tap
       out messages with their thumbs almost faster than I can type.
       Someone needs to grab English Grammar school education and throw
       out cursive, and drastically simplify spelling.  Countless
       wasted hours in both.
       #Post#: 19359--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cursive Handwriting
       By: SHL Date: September 7, 2019, 3:23 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=NealC link=topic=1358.msg19358#msg19358
       date=1567885186]
       Years ago good penmanship and spelling were the signs of an
       educated mind.  I remember cursive being the bane of my
       existence in 3rd and 4th grade until I finally rebelled and
       except for my signature, I refused to use it.  All my teachers
       scolded me and told me I would never get into college, the
       professors would laugh me out of the school, etc...  I just
       refused to change.  Frankly I was surprised I got away with it.
       Cursive has now become useless, most millennials I know cannot
       even read it.  I am very lucky that on a whim (and to meet
       girls) I took a typing class in High School.  THAT got me
       through college.  What they need to do is teach the kids
       computer skills and keyboarding (typewriting).  My kids can tap
       out messages with their thumbs almost faster than I can type.
       Someone needs to grab English Grammar school education and throw
       out cursive, and drastically simplify spelling.  Countless
       wasted hours in both.
       [/quote]
       My experience matches yours pretty closely, Neal. I really think
       handwriting as a cursive style ceased being taught in many
       places sometime in the 1970s. It may have ceased being taught in
       California since CA is and always has been considered a
       „progressive state.“
       Other states might have followed.
       No one ever told me that I’d never get into college not using
       cursive, so my way of „cheating“ was, as I said, sort of mixing
       cursive with non-cursive, using what made sense and what made
       writing easier and faster with certain cursive letters and
       forgetting the weird ones, like the capital G. That seemed to
       make good sense to me.
       I did substitute teaching at all grades from first through high
       school from late 1982 to the spring of 1984, and I never once
       recall any students learning cursive or handwriting even being a
       subject at any grade level.  So I feel people born after roughly
       1970 were likely not to have even been taught cursive, and I
       agree young people often can’t even read it sometimes nowadays
       (people under 40).
       #Post#: 19369--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cursive Handwriting
       By: Chizuko hanji Date: September 8, 2019, 9:35 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I learned English cursive handwriting at junior high school and
       I loved it because it was beautiful. I wrote some every day. It
       was not a language. It was an art for me.
       Fortunately or not, it isn't taught at school anymore. My
       daughter, 30 years old, can't write nor read it.
       Japanese cursive handwriting, calligraphy is absolutely amazing
       art. People who mastered it can do. I can't. If I see it, I
       can't even read.
       Thus, I can write English with cursive handwriting, but I can't
       do in the Japanese one!
       Funny, isn't it?
  HTML https://search.yahoo.co.jp/image/search?rkf=2&ei=UTF-8&gdr=1&p=%E6%9B%B8%E9%81%93+%E8%8D%89%E6%9B%B8
       #Post#: 19374--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cursive Handwriting
       By: SHL Date: September 8, 2019, 1:04 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Chizuko link=topic=1358.msg19369#msg19369
       date=1567953325]
       I learned English cursive handwriting at junior high school and
       I loved it because it was beautiful. I wrote some every day. It
       was not a language. It was an art for me.
       Fortunately or not, it isn't taught at school anymore. My
       daughter, 30 years old, can't write nor read it.
       Japanese cursive handwriting, calligraphy is absolutely amazing
       art. People who mastered it can do. I can't. If I see it, I
       can't even read.
       Thus, I can write English with cursive handwriting, but I can't
       do in the Japanese one!
       Funny, isn't it?
  HTML https://search.yahoo.co.jp/image/search?rkf=2&ei=UTF-8&gdr=1&p=%E6%9B%B8%E9%81%93+%E8%8D%89%E6%9B%B8
       [/quote]
       That’s interesting Chizuko.
       It is true that true handwriting, I mean GOOD handwriting,
       cursive or not, is a lost art. And especially cursive in English
       is dead for anyone under 70 or 80. They used to have a special
       class in school all young students had to take called just
       „handwriting“ where cursive was taught and people who did well
       in those elementary school classes now have beautiful
       handwriting. My handwriting looks like chicken scratch. I can
       barely read it myself.
       The police have to take special handwriting courses. They do not
       write in cursive, but they learn to write clearly because
       everyone needs to be able to read their reports.
       But handwriting is a lost art indeed.
       #Post#: 19379--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cursive Handwriting
       By: Pasha Date: September 8, 2019, 1:52 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Chizuko link=topic=1358.msg19369#msg19369
       date=1567953325]
       I learned English cursive handwriting at junior high school and
       I loved it because it was beautiful. I wrote some every day. It
       was not a language. It was an art for me.
       Fortunately or not, it isn't taught at school anymore. My
       daughter, 30 years old, can't write nor read it.
       Japanese cursive handwriting, calligraphy is absolutely amazing
       art. People who mastered it can do. I can't. If I see it, I
       can't even read.
       Thus, I can write English with cursive handwriting, but I can't
       do in the Japanese one!
       Funny, isn't it?
  HTML https://search.yahoo.co.jp/image/search?rkf=2&ei=UTF-8&gdr=1&p=%E6%9B%B8%E9%81%93+%E8%8D%89%E6%9B%B8
       [/quote]
       Interesting. Some of those characters  don't much differ from my
       handwriting in Russian, especially when written in the hurry or
       in bad position. I remember being reprimanded by teachers and
       Mom for writing chinese hieroglyphs (characters)  instead of
       intelligible letters.
       #Post#: 19380--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cursive Handwriting
       By: Nikola Date: September 8, 2019, 2:02 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Chizuko link=topic=1358.msg19369#msg19369
       date=1567953325]
       I learned English cursive handwriting at junior high school and
       I loved it because it was beautiful. I wrote some every day. It
       was not a language. It was an art for me.
       [/quote]
       Yeah but it probably looks somewhat exotic to you, that's
       different! :D
       One thing I'm not sure about is how people who were never taught
       cursive handwriting, develop a unique signature. They must all
       look pretty similar if you don't join the letters. Or do they
       join print letters? I know graphologists are immensely upset
       that the schools here started getting rid of cursive handwriting
       because they say you can't tell almost anything from print
       handwriting. I would feel more sympathy towards them if I knew
       what graphology is actually good for. Back in the day, they were
       probably able to help solve crimes, had the murderer been stupid
       enough to write something somewhere, but these days, there are
       much more advanced methods. Any graphologists here?
       #Post#: 19381--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cursive Handwriting
       By: SHL Date: September 8, 2019, 4:12 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Nikola link=topic=1358.msg19380#msg19380
       date=1567969336]
       [quote author=Chizuko link=topic=1358.msg19369#msg19369
       date=1567953325]
       I learned English cursive handwriting at junior high school and
       I loved it because it was beautiful. I wrote some every day. It
       was not a language. It was an art for me.
       [/quote]
       Yeah but it probably looks somewhat exotic to you, that's
       different! :D
       One thing I'm not sure about is how people who were never taught
       cursive handwriting, develop a unique signature. They must all
       look pretty similar if you don't join the letters. Or do they
       join print letters? I know graphologists are immensely upset
       that the schools here started getting rid of cursive handwriting
       because they say you can't tell almost anything from print
       handwriting. I would feel more sympathy towards them if I knew
       what graphology is actually good for. Back in the day, they were
       probably able to help solve crimes, had the murderer been stupid
       enough to write something somewhere, but these days, there are
       much more advanced methods. Any graphologists here?
       [/quote]
       You are right, Nikola, in saying back in the day handwriting was
       a way of helping solve crimes.
       I have a rather amusing story I ran across, not involving a
       crime, but where handwriting incriminated someone in my family.
       My great-grandfather‘s parents came from Northern Germany
       (Ostfriesland) and settled in Missouri around 1840 (for some
       reason a good number of Germans settled at the time in Missouri,
       and they were all Evangelical Lutherans, which is why Missouri
       to this day has a high number of Lutherans of German background,
       and a huge Missouri Lutheran Church organization). My
       great-grandfather had several brothers and sisters, and they all
       stayed in Missouri, except for my great-grandfather. He went
       moved out to California after marrying a local girl in Missouri.
       His brother was a pharmacist in some smaller town in Western
       Missouri (I read this whole story on the internet because it
       appeared in a local newspaper at the time around 1875 or
       something). The pharacist- brother was well-known in town, but
       allegedly wrote a letter to his local banker and told the banker
       he „better keep an eye on his (the banker‘s) wife because she
       was possibly „of loose morals“ (they wrote weird in those days)
       because a local young doctor was in town and apparently too
       friendly with her. He sent the letter anonymously to the banker.
       Well, the banker, on getting the letter, was outraged and
       confronted the doctor (this was all in the newspaper, believe it
       or not) and the article in the paper said they „settled their
       differences“ and agreed that the wife was a virtuous woman and
       not fooling around with he doctor. Why, they agreed on this the
       article didn‘t say.
       So the two decided to find the guy that wrote the anonymous
       letter. The banker went back to his bank and examined the
       handwriting of all of his customers and decided it must have
       come from the pharmacist, my great-grandfather‘s brother.
       So, one night the banker and the doctor went to the pharmacist‘s
       house and decided to „horse whip“ him for spreading this
       defamation about the banker‘s wife (this is the goofiest story I
       ever read in my life). They woke up the pharmacist and said they
       wanted to have a little talk with him. They then proceeded to
       kick the sh*t out of him. His wife, who witnessed the whole
       thing, apparently was in shock and passed out. The pharmacist
       denied having written the letter, but the doctor and banker
       didn‘t believe him.
       The newspaper article concluded that the pharmacist was suing
       the two guys for 500$ USD for assault.
       There‘s a weird story where handwriting apparently got someone
       into trouble. So, for solving crimes, handwriting was at one
       time useful (of course my story here wasn’t a crime, just a
       newspaper story).
       #Post#: 19383--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cursive Handwriting
       By: Chizuko hanji Date: September 8, 2019, 7:36 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Nikola
       [quote]One thing I'm not sure about is how people who were never
       taught cursive handwriting, develop a unique signature.[/quote]
       Probably you won't need your signature in the near future by the
       advance of technology.
       Authentication and signature by faces, fingerprints, eyeballs,
       and voices with computers will be developed. You won't need to
       sign by handwriting.
       Love letters will require handwriting forever though, will paper
       remain in the future, by the way?
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