DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Even Greener Pastures
HTML https://evengreener.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: General Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 18814--------------------------------------------------
Can a country prosecute people who committed war crimes elsewher
e? What do you think about that?
By: Aliph Date: August 2, 2019, 4:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Sorry if my juridical vocabulary isn’t correct. What do you
think about countries (like Germany) who decided to open a case
against a person who is suspected to have committed a crime
OUTSIDE the territory of the country?
They just opened a case against a former higher official of the
Syrian army living in Germany.
HTML https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/07/can-germany-convict-syrian-war-criminals/595054/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20190801&silverid-ref=Mzc2NzM4MzAyOTA5S0
I think some Europeans living in Germany and coming from
ex-Yugoslavia must tremble at the idea.
Some years ago (1998j a Spanish judge, Baltasar Garzón, had
made a similar move against the former dictator of Chili Augusti
Pinochet accusing him of having killed Spanish citizens.
#Post#: 18815--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can a country prosecute people who committed war crimes else
where? What do you think about that?
By: SHL Date: August 2, 2019, 6:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Sofia link=topic=1293.msg18814#msg18814
date=1564738049]
Sorry if my juridical vocabulary isn’t correct. What do you
think about countries (like Germany) who decided to open a case
against a person who is suspected to have committed a crime
OUTSIDE the territory of the country?
They just opened a case against a former higher official of the
Syrian army living in Germany.
HTML https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/07/can-germany-convict-syrian-war-criminals/595054/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20190801&silverid-ref=Mzc2NzM4MzAyOTA5S0
I think some Europeans living in Germany and coming from
ex-Yugoslavia must tremble at the idea.
Some years ago (1998j a Spanish judge, Baltasar Garzón, had
made a similar move against the former dictator of Chili Augusti
Pinochet accusing him of having killed Spanish citizens.
[/quote]
Wow, Sofia, that’s a tough question involving international law.
I took a course in law school, International Law, (I happened to
get the highest grade in the class-sorry if I sound like I’m
bragging), but that was back in the late 80s.
It’s very country-specific. To my knowledge there are no
international treaties on this yet (it's more likely in the EU).
The US has what is/called „The Foreign Sovereign Immunities
Act.“ The traditional rule worldwide was NO. That’s the baseline
standard. No jurisdiction is the defense.
But, the US said some crimes were so bad that there should be an
exception to this.
There was a military coup in Argentina in the 70s (you remember
the Generals who ran the country and decided to invade what they
said was their territory, the Falkland Islands, but the islands
were and still are a British territory?) The British got quite
upset about the whole thing and set troupes in to retake the
Islands (which they did) and drive out the Argentinians.
(There‘s really nothing on the Falklands but sheep farms). The
Argentine generals only did this because their dictatorial rule
was becoming unpopular in Argentina.
A few years earlier the Argentinians had persecuted some
minority groups in Tukaman, a province. They imprisoned and
tortured a well-to-to furniture manufacturer. But the guy
escaped or was released and he got political asylum in the US.
While in the US he sued the Government of Argentina over the
torture saying it was an international war crime and he US had
jurisdiction under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (it‘s
complicated).
When the Argentine Embassy was sued in Washington, they just
ignored the lawsuit, like it was nothing. But a Federal Judge in
Los Angeles enter a Default Judgment in the case and awarded the
guy several hundreds of millions of dollars.
The Argentinians continued to ignore the situation thinking they
were immune from a lawsuit in the US.
But the Plaintiff‘s lawyers decided to enforce the Judgment. A
convenient asset to levy on was Argentina‘s Airline, Aerolineas
Argentina. As soon as one of their 747s landed at the Los
Angeles Airport, the Los Angeles County Sheriffs office decided
to levy on the plane to collect the default judgment. They
locked the wheels and told the airline they were confiscating it
to satisfy the Judgment and it was not allowed to go anywhere
since the plane would be sold off at auction to satisfy the
Judgment. The flight crew, understandably enraged , got ahold
of the Argentine Embassy, which promptly hired lawyers in
Washington (the best law firm they could find). The plane was
held up a week or so, and the matter was settled with Argentina
paying out a few million to settle the case.
So yes, international law there are certain remedies.
#Post#: 18819--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can a country prosecute people who committed war crimes else
where? What do you think about that?
By: NealC Date: August 2, 2019, 8:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes Steven but this is a criminal case, always more concerned
with formalities like jurisdiction than civil cases.
This is very interesting what Germany is doing, who can tell
them to stop? If the criminal is within their borders Germany
can certainly enforce the law. I applaud them for it.
#Post#: 18827--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can a country prosecute people who committed war crimes else
where? What do you think about that?
By: SHL Date: August 2, 2019, 12:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=NealC link=topic=1293.msg18819#msg18819
date=1564753826]
Yes Steven but this is a criminal case, always more concerned
with formalities like jurisdiction than civil cases.
This is very interesting what Germany is doing, who can tell
them to stop? If the criminal is within their borders Germany
can certainly enforce the law. I applaud them for it.
[/quote]
I applaud them for that too.
The notion of international crimes against humanity being able
to be prosecuted criminally anywhere in the world is not a new
idea. But, it is an emerging area of law. I frankly don’t know
how that much about it, not anymore than any layman would, but
it‘s not something I would have any problem with. That, in
addition to civil remedies applying too, make it all the better
(if there’s money somewhere to be grabbed for the victims).
#Post#: 18834--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can a country prosecute people who committed war crimes else
where? What do you think about that?
By: SHL Date: August 2, 2019, 2:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Of course, the most common example of criminally prosecuting
people in your own country for crimes committed outside your
country is to be found in the US. It’s not like the German
international war crimes concept exactly. which is unique, but
for decades the US criminal courts have said US jurisdiction is
no problem applied to someone doing something illegal outside
the US if what is done has some, almost any, impact on the US.
Drug trafficking is the classic example.
That’s how the US grabbed Manuel Noriega years ago (I think he
is still alive in a US prison somewhere) and the US idea of
grabbing Pablo Escobar in Columbia was the same concept. But,
he was killed and that ended that. But, Noriega was an acting
Head of State of a sovereign nation and the US found reason to
invade and take him into custody in his own country, haul him
back to the US, try him, and throw him in jail forever. It
wasn’t over human rights abuses (although I wouldn’t be
surprised to learn he was guilty of some of those too) but drug
trafficking.
So, the US always can find jurisdiction to prosecute anyone in
the world for anything it wants. All they have to say is what is
going on has some small impact on the US, and that’s all they
need. If the US was interested in criminally prosecuting human
rights violators for things done outside the US, I’m positive
the US could find some jurisdictional basis for it.
#Post#: 18860--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can a country prosecute people who committed war crimes else
where? What do you think about that?
By: SHL Date: August 3, 2019, 10:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Sofia link=topic=1293.msg18814#msg18814
date=1564738049]
Sorry if my juridical vocabulary isn’t correct. What do you
think about countries (like Germany) who decided to open a case
against a person who is suspected to have committed a crime
OUTSIDE the territory of the country?
They just opened a case against a former higher official of the
Syrian army living in Germany.
HTML https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/07/can-germany-convict-syrian-war-criminals/595054/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20190801&silverid-ref=Mzc2NzM4MzAyOTA5S0
I think some Europeans living in Germany and coming from
ex-Yugoslavia must tremble at the idea.
Some years ago (1998j a Spanish judge, Baltasar Garzón, had
made a similar move against the former dictator of Chili Augusti
Pinochet accusing him of having killed Spanish citizens.
[/quote]
I recall living in an apartment complex while going to
University in 1979. After the fall of the Shah of Iran in that
year, one of his top SAVAK men (the Shah‘s secret police) had
left Iran and was living in my apartment complex under an
assumed name. He had committed a number of crimes against
humanity: torture, murder, you name it. The guy was a real
monster. And, he was sought by the then new Iranian government.
The guy was living near the University because he was living
with his son, who was an engineering student there at the time.
The police were looking for him, but he disappeared for awhile
and I think moved off, but they eventually found him. I doubt
the story is analogous to the one cited, but I believe the US
intended just to send him back to Iran, where he would be
summarily tried and hung. So, there wouldn’t have been much of a
need for the US to prosecute the him itself for the crimes. But,
the concept is a good one, and a jurisdictional foundation isn’t
that hard too imagine. All you have to say is this fellow‘s
crimes in Iran caused people to flee to the US, and that
impacted the US negatively. There‘s the causal connection
between what he did there that impacted the US.
I‘m sure the law was a bit early in its development at the time
for it to be applied exactly like in the article about Germany,
but again it wouldn’t have been hard to imagine the US applying
jurisdiction under the facts. They just didn‘t need to since,
sending this guy back to Iran, is all they needed to do for
justice to be done.
My roommate and I even met the guy that summer in the swimming
pool and talked to him. A pretty strange fellow I must say.
*****************************************************