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#Post#: 18615--------------------------------------------------
Law Against Movements Oppressing Human Rights vs Free Speech SPL
IT FROM Back to Angela Davis
By: Irena Date: July 25, 2019, 11:05 am
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[quote author=Nikola link=topic=1275.msg18614#msg18614
date=1564070404]
I think that celebrating someone like her might actually be
against the law in my country, not even joking. We have a Law
Against Support and Dissemination of Movements Oppressing Human
Rights and Freedoms which also applies to communist-perpetrated
atrocities. Just something to be aware of if you happen to cross
the Czech border.
[/quote]
Interesting... Sounds like an unnecessary restriction of free
speech. Not that I approve of Angela Davis. But that's not the
point.
#Post#: 18617--------------------------------------------------
Re: Law Against Movements Oppressing Human Rights vs Free Speech
SPLIT FROM Back to Angela Davis
By: Nikola Date: July 25, 2019, 11:31 am
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[quote author=Irena link=topic=1275.msg18615#msg18615
date=1564070728]
Interesting... Sounds like an unnecessary restriction of free
speech. Not that I approve of Angela Davis. But that's not the
point.
[/quote]
It's basically one law that treats this and Nazism the same and
also addresses denying the Holocaust and denying the communist
genocide. I don't know where you would draw the line in terms of
free speech. After all, one person's freedom ends where
another's begins. We still have the Communist Party but even
they had to declare that they disagree with things that happened
before 1989.
#Post#: 18619--------------------------------------------------
Re: Law Against Movements Oppressing Human Rights vs Free Speech
SPLIT FROM Back to Angela Davis
By: Irena Date: July 25, 2019, 11:40 am
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Nikola, I actually think that even laws against Holocaust denial
are counterproductive. It just makes deniers go underground, and
it convinces them that there are no good arguments proving that
the Holocaust ever took place, since otherwise, the other side
would use arguments, rather than legal restrictions.
As I see it, if you're going to restrict free speech, you need
to have very compelling reasons for doing so. Credible threats
and incitement to violence should be unacceptable. The same goes
for slander against individuals. But if someone's merely
misrepresenting history, then let him (or her). Use reasoned
arguments to defeat him.
#Post#: 18621--------------------------------------------------
Re: Law Against Movements Oppressing Human Rights vs Free Speech
SPLIT FROM Back to Angela Davis
By: Nikola Date: July 25, 2019, 11:52 am
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[quote author=Irena link=topic=1275.msg18619#msg18619
date=1564072850]
Nikola, I actually think that even laws against Holocaust denial
are counterproductive. It just makes deniers go underground, and
it convinces them that there are no good arguments proving that
the Holocaust ever took place, since otherwise, the other side
would use arguments, rather than legal restrictions.
As I see it, if you're going to restrict free speech, you need
to have very compelling reasons for doing so. Credible threats
and incitement to violence should be unacceptable. The same goes
for slander against individuals. But if someone's merely
misrepresenting history, then let him (or her). Use reasoned
arguments to defeat him.
[/quote]
I get your point but we're not talking just about some crazy guy
shouting something on the street. If you allow it, you'll get
books written about it, quoted in other books, real numbers
slowly changing, people will start saying "different sources
quote different numbers" and "it's a matter of perspective" but
the thing is it isn't.
I wouldn't want to see this over-used but I think in the case of
millions of victims and movements that operate on the principle
of violent seizure of power and killing those who disagree,
which, in my opinion, isn't too far from "credible threats and
incitement to violence", I don't have a problem with it.
#Post#: 18622--------------------------------------------------
Re: Law Against Movements Oppressing Human Rights vs Free Speech
SPLIT FROM Back to Angela Davis
By: Irena Date: July 25, 2019, 11:55 am
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Nikola, I hear that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion sells
very well in Serbia. Illegally. Forbidden fruit and all that.
#Post#: 18624--------------------------------------------------
Re: Law Against Movements Oppressing Human Rights vs Free Speech
SPLIT FROM Back to Angela Davis
By: Nikola Date: July 25, 2019, 12:18 pm
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[quote author=Irena link=topic=1276.msg18622#msg18622
date=1564073742]
Nikola, I hear that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion sells
very well in Serbia. Illegally. Forbidden fruit and all that.
[/quote]
OK so that's a side effect of the law. Could something be done
about it? How much of it is curiosity-driven? Because I think
that for educational purposes, while stating very clearly that
this is wrong, things like this could be shown to people and
talked about. In fact they should be talked about. It's the
celebrating and distribution of it that's not allowed.
Now a side effect of not having the law: Numbers and facts being
bent in the course of time and people believing that they are
open to interpretation, as a result. People not being sure
whether the Holocaust ever happened. Could this be avoided?
#Post#: 18628--------------------------------------------------
Re: Law Against Movements Oppressing Human Rights vs Free Speech
SPLIT FROM Back to Angela Davis
By: NealC Date: July 25, 2019, 1:20 pm
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I don't think the Holocaust will ever be forgotten solely on the
basis of the meticulous records kept by the Germans themselves.
I was reading about the Warsaw Uprising today and the first hand
reports they have from the German commander who went in and
flattened the Ghetto was enough to chill me to my bones. A lot
of these people were very committed to what they were doing and
had no problem writing about it.
#Post#: 18629--------------------------------------------------
Re: Law Against Movements Oppressing Human Rights vs Free Speech
SPLIT FROM Back to Angela Davis
By: Alharacas Date: July 25, 2019, 1:35 pm
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Irena, I see your point, and to some extent I even agree with
it. In theory.
In practice, it seems unnecessarily cruel towards the survivors
and the descendants of victims to have to put up with deniers
and belittlers on top of everything else, doesn't it?
I see these laws as the least a society can do which committed,
condoned, did nothing to stop atrocities. Dead people are final,
no amends can be made. All you can do afterwards is to try and
ensure a minimum of respect is shown.
Oh - apart from trying to get the murderers condemned. Yeah,
there is that. But then, that would mean looking things in the
face. Too much bother, apparently.
#Post#: 18659--------------------------------------------------
Re: Law Against Movements Oppressing Human Rights vs Free Speech
SPLIT FROM Back to Angela Davis
By: Alharacas Date: July 26, 2019, 3:56 am
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Steven, your post has been moved to
Back to Angela Davis SPLIT FROM Stripping off clothes? Those
Americans are crazy! Human Rights vs Free Speech SPLIT FROM Back
to Angela Davis SPLIT AGAIN from Human Rights vs. Free Speech
as this particular thread here has nothing whatsoever to do with
your personal opinion about socialism. :)
Neal, it's not about forgetting. It's about guys like the one I
saw on TV the other day (not live, they were showing a bit of a
recording, but amazingly, the guy is actually still alive),
saying how you should be careful with talking about millions,
because there simply hadn't been that many jews. This guy is
undoubtedly a mass murderer. However, when they'd tried to
convict him, decades ago, apparently there was not enough
evidence (big advantage when all of your victims are dead). So,
now at least he's being dragged through the courts because he's
denied the Holocaust. Yes, it's the smallest placebo imaginable,
but surely it's something that he's not allowed to keep mocking
his victims?
I think we'd need Susan to help us with terminology and a
scientific explanation, but basically this is how I see it:
after a genocide, there are still all those people around who'd
participated in it to a larger or smaller extent, who'd admired,
applauded, helped and/or tried to emulate its instigators. And
if anyone, it's usually only the instigators who are
executed/condemned. The others... well, some may come to realize
how wrongly they'd acted. But many, I'd say the majority, have a
vested interest in minimizing (if not justifying) what happened.
Recognizing their guilt would invalidate a significant part of
their lives, all the emotions invested in ardent belief,
bla-bla-bla. And since you can't send a large part of a
country's population into therapy (provided that would even
work), you bleeding well have to do something to at least try
and shut them up, don't you?
#Post#: 18662--------------------------------------------------
Re: Law Against Movements Oppressing Human Rights vs Free Speech
SPLIT FROM Back to Angela Davis
By: Irena Date: July 26, 2019, 4:27 am
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[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1276.msg18629#msg18629
date=1564079706]
Irena, I see your point, and to some extent I even agree with
it. In theory.
In practice, it seems unnecessarily cruel towards the survivors
and the descendants of victims to have to put up with deniers
and belittlers on top of everything else, doesn't it?
I see these laws as the least a society can do which committed,
condoned, did nothing to stop atrocities. Dead people are final,
no amends can be made. All you can do afterwards is to try and
ensure a minimum of respect is shown.
Oh - apart from trying to get the murderers condemned. Yeah,
there is that. But then, that would mean looking things in the
face. Too much bother, apparently.
[/quote]
Yeah, well, and then you get laws like the one in Poland. From
Wikipedia: "A law forbidding anyone from blaming the state of
Poland for Holocaust atrocities during World War II was voted by
lawmakers on January 26, 2018." ::)
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#Poland
I'd rather protect free speech, and handle people who spout
nonsense (even highly offensive nonsense) by other means.
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