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#Post#: 18315--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bulgaria: The World's Fastest-Shrinking Country (video)
By: Nikola Date: July 22, 2019, 4:35 am
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@Neal
We actually get both here. People from small villages moving to
the city, people from the city rediscovering the countryside and
the centre of the city becoming completely un-livable (no shops,
tourists everywhere, houses owned by people from abroad who
don't live in them).
@Irena
It depends on what your idea of charming is. I think that even
this place must be quite pretty in the summer. It's things like
the empty factory building and Trabants (were they Trabants?)
under the snow that ruin the image. Those things weren't always
there. I don't think it's the small population or the fact that
they're poor that makes it un-charming.
#Post#: 18317--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bulgaria: The World's Fastest-Shrinking Country (video)
By: Alharacas Date: July 22, 2019, 5:25 am
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Nikola, I agree.
Also, even being objectively charming (if there is such a
thing!) is no real help when it comes to work being scarce and
governments not spending anything on infrastructure:
HTML https://www.thelocal.fr/20190213/the-downsides-of-living-in-a-small-town-in-france
HTML https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/the-death-of-the-french-countryside-1149044.html
Irena, it seems to me there must be one or more other factors at
work. Looking at the successive waves of workers from other
countries invited by the German government, starting in the
60ies, it strikes me as odd that sizeable portions of people
from each of the respective countries of origin chose to remain
in Germany (most of all those from Turkey, but also from Greece
and Italy) - except for the Spanish. Even though you really
can't argue prospects had improved that much in Spain - they
hadn't and haven't, not in the places these workers had mostly
come from, i.e. Andalusia and rural Galicia.
#Post#: 18318--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bulgaria: The World's Fastest-Shrinking Country (video)
By: Irena Date: July 22, 2019, 5:30 am
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[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1256.msg18317#msg18317
date=1563791121]
Irena, it seems to me there must be one or more other factors at
work. Looking at the successive waves of workers from other
countries invited by the German government, starting in the
60ies, it strikes me as odd that sizeable portions of people
from each of the respective countries of origin chose to remain
in Germany (most of all those from Turkey, but also from Greece
and Italy) - except for the Spanish. Even though you really
can't argue prospects had improved that much in Spain - they
hadn't and haven't, not in the places these workers had mostly
come from, i.e. Andalusia and rural Galicia.
[/quote]
Interesting! So, when those Spanish workers went back to Spain,
did they go back to the regions they originally came from, or
did they move to more prosperous parts of Spain?
#Post#: 18323--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bulgaria: The World's Fastest-Shrinking Country (video)
By: Alharacas Date: July 22, 2019, 6:41 am
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Those I met had gone back to the places they'd originally come
from. But of course, that is purely anecdotal evidence.
This article - unfortunately in German - seems to bear me out,
at least as far as workers from Southern Italy are concerned:
apparently, many came to Germany to make as much money as
possible, as quickly as possible, in order to buy a little land
and a house of their own in the place they'd come from.
In other respects, it's quite an interesting article. It gives
the lie to quite a few claims I'd thought to be historical
truths. For example, inviting workers from abroad to Germany was
not due to the booming German economy, as I'd previously thought
(see above):
HTML https://zeitgeschichte-online.de/themen/die-komplexitaet-von-integration
#Post#: 18326--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bulgaria: The World's Fastest-Shrinking Country (video)
By: Irena Date: July 22, 2019, 6:48 am
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[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1256.msg18323#msg18323
date=1563795665]
This article - unfortunately in German - seems to bear me out,
at least as far as workers from Southern Italy are concerned:
apparently, many came to Germany to make as much money as
possible, as quickly as possible, in order to buy a little land
and a house of their own in the place they'd come from.
[/quote]
Ah, yes. That, too happens. It even happens with people in
Serbia, sometimes. But such people seem to be very much in the
minority (talking about Serbia, here). Most who leave never come
back. I imagine there's a lot of regional and cultural variation
in these matters. Climate might also play a role. For people
from the Mediterranean, German climate might feel downright
depressing. Less so for those used to the continental climate.
#Post#: 18328--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bulgaria: The World's Fastest-Shrinking Country (video)
By: Irena Date: July 22, 2019, 7:04 am
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One more thought. Sometimes, people move to a more prosperous
country, suffer from nostalgia, nonetheless spend decades there,
form a family, and then move back to where they came from once
they retire, leaving their children behind. That's obviously
very different from spending a few years abroad in order to make
money, and then going back home, buying a house, marrying a
local girl, and starting a family with her.
#Post#: 18330--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bulgaria: The World's Fastest-Shrinking Country (video)
By: Alharacas Date: July 22, 2019, 7:17 am
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[quote author=Irena link=topic=1256.msg18326#msg18326
date=1563796090]
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1256.msg18323#msg18323
date=1563795665]
This article - unfortunately in German - seems to bear me out,
at least as far as workers from Southern Italy are concerned:
apparently, many came to Germany to make as much money as
possible, as quickly as possible, in order to buy a little land
and a house of their own in the place they'd come from.
[/quote]
Ah, yes. That, too happens. It even happens with people in
Serbia, sometimes. But such people seem to be very much in the
minority (talking about Serbia, here). Most who leave never come
back. I imagine there's a lot of regional and cultural variation
in these matters. Climate might also play a role. For people
from the Mediterranean, German climate might feel downright
depressing. Less so for those used to the continental climate.
[/quote]
I agree. And also, there is the problem that a (small-ish) piece
of land and a house will not really enable you to feed and
clothe a family, let alone educate your children - who would
not, in turn, be really any better off than their parents had
been before they temporarily emigrated. I think it was this
gradual realization more than anything which caused the Turkish
community in Germany to grow.
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