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#Post#: 18010--------------------------------------------------
Re: Writing Challenge: Day 6
By: SHL Date: July 14, 2019, 11:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Nikola link=topic=1225.msg17935#msg17935
date=1563025763]
[img width=300
height=93]
HTML https://nga.gov.au/exhibitions/images/20923_banner.jpg[/img]
A Bigger Grand Canyon ist ein Gemälde des britischen Malers
David Hockney. Es besteht aus 60 Leinwände. Hockney hat es nach
seiner Reise nach Grand Canyon gemalt. Er hatte sich damals
ziemlich klaustrophobisch gefühlt und wollte in einem offenen
Raum sein.
Das Gemälde zeigt Grand Canyon aus mehreren Standpunkten und zu
verschiedenen Tageszeiten. Es ist eigentlich eine Collage, die
von kubistischen Malern inspiriert wurde. Hockney hat dabei
seine eigenen Photos, die er sechzehn Jahren davor gemacht
hatte, benutzt.
Ich mag Hockneys leuchtende Farben, die warme und kühle Tönen
nebeneinander und, genau wie den Autor, mich fasziniert die
große offene Fläche und die Einzigartigkeit des Ortes.
[/quote]
When I saw Nikola’s German post I noticed Alharacas had
responded to it, just because I saw her name below it but not
seeing her text. But, before looking at Alharacas`corrections,
I thought I’d try my own to get Alharacas´opinion, knowing I
probably messed it up. Only after that did I look at Alharacas’
post (I seriously didn’t cheat).
So, here it goes:
“A Bigger Grand Canyon ist ein Gemälde des britischen Malers
David Hockney. Es besteht aus 60 Leinwänden. Hockney hat es nach
seiner Reise nach Grand Canyon gemalt. Er hatte damals an
Klaustrophobie gelitten, und er wollte im Offenen malen
(alternatives: “ und sehnete danach, im Offenen zu
sein”..or....”er suchte offene Flächen”, leaving wollen out in
the alternatives). Das Gemälde bildet den Grand Canyon von
verschiedenen Blickwinkeln ab, und zu verschiedenen Tageszeiten.
Es ist eigentlich ein Gemälde von kubistisch inspirierten
Malern. Hockney hat dabei seine eigenen Fotos benutzt, die er
vor 16 Jahren aufgenommen hatte.
Ich mag Hockneys leuchtende Farben, die warmen und kühlen
nebeneinander liegenden Töne, und wie es dem Maler gelungen ist,
mich mit den großen Flächen und der Einzigartigkeit des Ortes zu
faszinieren.”
Here’s where Alharacas can help: The open spaces translation.
Offene Natur? Probably a lot better than my use of “im Offenen”
, and also I was a bit thrown off by “Standpunkt” and
“Blickwinkel” kept popping into my head, which is a bit like
Perspektive, but I wasn’t so sure it could be used literally,
not just figuratively, like one’s point of view, opinion, which
is what I would assume is its most common use. But, some German
nouns can be literal as well as flexible in a figurative way, so
it’s hard to say. I also toyed with using Aussicht or just
Sicht, sort of like “Sie versperren mir die Sicht/Aussicht”,
which is a bit more the literal view of something, but I thought
I'd get Alharacas’ opinion to see if I really messed up with
“Blickwinkel”. The more I think about it the more I think
something with Sicht or Aussicht might have been better.
Another question I had was with wollen and sein in the same
sentence. Like “er will Arzt sein”, which I always thought meant
more he claims to be a doctor, not wants to be. It could just be
a throwback for me from many decades ago, so I tend to avoid
this construction unless to mean, with a bit of skepticism,
claims to be. For he wants to be a doctor I would say “er will
Arzt werden.” It’s just whenever I see will + sein, a red flag
goes off in my head that this means claims to be, not wants to
be. But, wollen plus other verbs translate pretty literally. Er
will das tun: he wants to do that.
And, no offense to Nikola, but I wasn’t entirely sure of what
she meant with the last sentence. I thought she was saying the
painter was successful in fascinating her with the colors and so
on?
So, I may have misunderstood.
But, my re-write is probably far from great, since Alharacas is
really the expert here. But, I thought I’d give it a try and
maybe get her feedback. So, I’m keeping my fingers crossed I
didn’t mess it up too much! :)
Oh, and one other thing. The “zum Grand Canyon” vs. nach. I
always thought places used nach and you used zu with people, and
a few other places within a larger place, like a city. Like “Ich
muß zum Friseur”, except in phrases like “nach Hause.”
Dutch uses its version of nach (naar) for almost everything.
Just like they really like using bij a lot, using it more that
its German cousin bei.
Thanks Alharacas!
#Post#: 18024--------------------------------------------------
Re: Writing Challenge: Day 6
By: Alharacas Date: July 14, 2019, 3:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=SHL link=topic=1225.msg18010#msg18010
date=1563122620]
“A Bigger Grand Canyon ist ein Gemälde des britischen Malers
David Hockney. Es besteht aus 60 Leinwänden. Hockney hat es nach
seiner Reise nach* Grand Canyon gemalt. Er hatte damals an
Klaustrophobie gelitten, und er wollte im Offenen malen
(alternatives: “ und sehnte sich danach, im offenen Gelände zu
sein”..or....”er suchte offene Flächen”, leaving wollen out in
the alternatives). Das Gemälde bildet den Grand Canyon von
verschiedenen Blickwinkeln aus ab, und zu verschiedenen
Tageszeiten. Es ist eigentlich ein Gemälde von kubistisch
inspirierten Malern**. Hockney hat dabei seine eigenen Fotos
benutzt, die er vor*** 16 Jahren aufgenommen hatte.
*what I tell those unfortunates who occasionally ask me to teach
them German is that they should consider "nach/zu Hause" as an
archaic exception. :)
nach (in the sense of "to"/direction) is used for cities and
countries
zu/m/r is used for pretty much everything else
in is used for die Stadt, der/den Wald, die Berge
Meaning there's no alternative to "zum Grand Canyon", sorry. :)
**This would translate back to "It's really/actually a painting
by painters inspired by cubism", therefore not really viable,
sorry.
***You could have said that if you'd been there just after
Hockney had finished the painting. As it is, you need "zuvor" or
"davor". Same difference as with "ago" vs. "before", but I'm
sure you know that, anyway. ;)
Ich mag Hockneys leuchtende Farben, die warmen und kühlen
nebeneinander liegenden Töne, und wie es dem Maler gelungen ist,
mich mit den großen Flächen und der Einzigartigkeit des Ortes zu
faszinieren.”
Your version of the sentence is perfectly correct, Steven. It's
just that it doesn't really mean the same as Nikola's sentence.
Let me give you a rough translation of both, just to show you
the difference, okay?
Nikola: ... and I'm just as fascinated as the painter by the
wide open space and the uniqueness of the place. (she didn't use
the passive voice, but you get what she wanted to say, right?)
Steven: ... and [I like] how the painter managed to fascinate me
with (by?) the big space/s and the uniqueness of the place.
Here’s where Alharacas can help: The open spaces translation.
Offene Natur? Probably a lot better than my use of “im Offenen”
, and also I was a bit thrown off by “Standpunkt” and
“Blickwinkel” kept popping into my head, which is a bit like
Perspektive, but I wasn’t so sure it could be used literally,
not just figuratively, like one’s point of view, opinion, which
is what I would assume is its most common use. But, some German
nouns can be literal as well as flexible in a figurative way, so
it’s hard to say. I also toyed with using Aussicht or just
Sicht, sort of like “Sie versperren mir die Sicht/Aussicht”,
which is a bit more the literal view of something, but I thought
I'd get Alharacas’ opinion to see if I really messed up with
“Blickwinkel”. The more I think about it the more I think
something with Sicht or Aussicht might have been better.
You're right, Steven, "Standpunkt" is used figuratively for
"point of view" as in "(mental) position" or "opinion".
"Blickwinkel" is fine, it's used both figuratively and literally
for "perspective", but it needs the preposition "aus".
Another question I had was with wollen and sein in the same
sentence. Like “er will Arzt sein”, which I always thought meant
more he claims to be a doctor, not wants to be. It could just be
a throwback for me from many decades ago, so I tend to avoid
this construction unless to mean, with a bit of skepticism,
claims to be. For he wants to be a doctor I would say “er will
Arzt werden.” It’s just whenever I see will + sein, a red flag
goes off in my head that this means claims to be, not wants to
be. But, wollen plus other verbs translate pretty literally. Er
will das tun: he wants to do that.
Correct. :)
And, no offense to Nikola, but I wasn’t entirely sure of what
she meant with the last sentence. I thought she was saying the
painter was successful in fascinating her with the colors and so
on?
See above. :)
So, I may have misunderstood.
But, my re-write is probably far from great, since Alharacas is
really the expert here. But, I thought I’d give it a try and
maybe get her feedback. So, I’m keeping my fingers crossed I
didn’t mess it up too much! :)
Oh, and one other thing. The “zum Grand Canyon” vs. nach. I
always thought places used nach and you used zu with people, and
a few other places within a larger place, like a city. Like “Ich
muß zum Friseur”, except in phrases like “nach Hause.”
See above.
Dutch uses its version of nach (naar) for almost everything.
Just like they really like using bij a lot, using it more that
its German cousin bei.
Thanks Alharacas!
[/quote]
#Post#: 18032--------------------------------------------------
Re: Writing Challenge: Day 6
By: SHL Date: July 14, 2019, 5:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1225.msg18024#msg18024
date=1563134753]
[quote author=SHL link=topic=1225.msg18010#msg18010
date=1563122620]
“A Bigger Grand Canyon ist ein Gemälde des britischen Malers
David Hockney. Es besteht aus 60 Leinwänden. Hockney hat es nach
seiner Reise nach* Grand Canyon gemalt. Er hatte damals an
Klaustrophobie gelitten, und er wollte im Offenen malen
(alternatives: “ und sehnte sich danach, im offenen Gelände zu
sein”..or....”er suchte offene Flächen”, leaving wollen out in
the alternatives). Das Gemälde bildet den Grand Canyon von
verschiedenen Blickwinkeln aus ab, und zu verschiedenen
Tageszeiten. Es ist eigentlich ein Gemälde von kubistisch
inspirierten Malern**. Hockney hat dabei seine eigenen Fotos
benutzt, die er vor*** 16 Jahren aufgenommen hatte.
*what I tell those unfortunates who occasionally ask me to teach
them German is that they should consider "nach/zu Hause" as an
archaic exception. :)
nach (in the sense of "to"/direction) is used for cities and
countries
zu/m/r is used for pretty much everything else
in is used for die Stadt, der/den Wald, die Berge
Meaning there's no alternative to "zum Grand Canyon", sorry. :)
**This would translate back to "It's really/actually a painting
by painters inspired by cubism", therefore not really viable,
sorry.
***You could have said that if you'd been there just after
Hockney had finished the painting. As it is, you need "zuvor" or
"davor". Same difference as with "ago" vs. "before", but I'm
sure you know that, anyway. ;)
Ich mag Hockneys leuchtende Farben, die warmen und kühlen
nebeneinander liegenden Töne, und wie es dem Maler gelungen ist,
mich mit den großen Flächen und der Einzigartigkeit des Ortes zu
faszinieren.”
Your version of the sentence is perfectly correct, Steven. It's
just that it doesn't really mean the same as Nikola's sentence.
Let me give you a rough translation of both, just to show you
the difference, okay?
Nikola: ... and I'm just as fascinated as the painter by the
wide open space and the uniqueness of the place. (she didn't use
the passive voice, but you get what she wanted to say, right?)
Steven: ... and [I like] how the painter managed to fascinate me
with (by?) the big space/s and the uniqueness of the place.
Here’s where Alharacas can help: The open spaces translation.
Offene Natur? Probably a lot better than my use of “im Offenen”
, and also I was a bit thrown off by “Standpunkt” and
“Blickwinkel” kept popping into my head, which is a bit like
Perspektive, but I wasn’t so sure it could be used literally,
not just figuratively, like one’s point of view, opinion, which
is what I would assume is its most common use. But, some German
nouns can be literal as well as flexible in a figurative way, so
it’s hard to say. I also toyed with using Aussicht or just
Sicht, sort of like “Sie versperren mir die Sicht/Aussicht”,
which is a bit more the literal view of something, but I thought
I'd get Alharacas’ opinion to see if I really messed up with
“Blickwinkel”. The more I think about it the more I think
something with Sicht or Aussicht might have been better.
You're right, Steven, "Standpunkt" is used figuratively for
"point of view" as in "(mental) position" or "opinion".
"Blickwinkel" is fine, it's used both figuratively and literally
for "perspective", but it needs the preposition "aus".
Another question I had was with wollen and sein in the same
sentence. Like “er will Arzt sein”, which I always thought meant
more he claims to be a doctor, not wants to be. It could just be
a throwback for me from many decades ago, so I tend to avoid
this construction unless to mean, with a bit of skepticism,
claims to be. For he wants to be a doctor I would say “er will
Arzt werden.” It’s just whenever I see will + sein, a red flag
goes off in my head that this means claims to be, not wants to
be. But, wollen plus other verbs translate pretty literally. Er
will das tun: he wants to do that.
Correct. :)
And, no offense to Nikola, but I wasn’t entirely sure of what
she meant with the last sentence. I thought she was saying the
painter was successful in fascinating her with the colors and so
on?
See above. :)
So, I may have misunderstood.
But, my re-write is probably far from great, since Alharacas is
really the expert here. But, I thought I’d give it a try and
maybe get her feedback. So, I’m keeping my fingers crossed I
didn’t mess it up too much! :)
Oh, and one other thing. The “zum Grand Canyon” vs. nach. I
always thought places used nach and you used zu with people, and
a few other places within a larger place, like a city. Like “Ich
muß zum Friseur”, except in phrases like “nach Hause.”
See above.
Dutch uses its version of nach (naar) for almost everything.
Just like they really like using bij a lot, using it more that
its German cousin bei.
Thanks Alharacas!
[/quote]
[/quote]
Thanks for the correction and comments, Alharacas. Nikola did a
good job with her piece and your corrections were spot on.
Yes, Standpunkt was the first thing that caught my eye and then
I starting trying to think of alternatives. The word just kept
reminding my of Stellungnahme, the one who hear all the time in
the news about government opinions, position statements, things
like that. Blickwinkel made me think of sort of being in a
corner and having a view of something, like a vantage point, so
it seemed to fit better. But that seemed more instinctual than
anything else.
I haven’t seen Blickwinkel written too much, and now looking at
a usage chart which I like, put out by DWDS, Perspektive is used
about 10 times more frequently to say the same thing. It is
funny that you mentioned aus had to follow Blickwinkel, because
I had some sort of instinct as well that something should follow
that word, and I wrote hinaus after Blickwinkel, at first, but
then decided that looked a bit odd so left it out.
As to zum Grand Canyon, I see your point. The Grand Canyon is
just a region (although I think there is a little town there
called Grand Canyon, but that’s not what the artist was
interested in) so yeah there appears to be nothing to use but
zu. The preposition “in” would be fine with other localities,
but it’s a no-go with the Grand Canyon, unless you are going in
for a swim I suppose.
As to Raum, I always thought of this as just a room in a
building, but just two days ago I asked my friend’s husband if
he could tell me his view of the difference between a Zimmer and
a Raum. I was asking because he had built a little room inside
his barn that looked like a small bar, for beer with chairs and
a counter. I asked him about it, and in German just described it
as that Räumchen he had built and what it for. He said it was
his “Kneipe”. So I later asked his wife Uli about it, and she
bolted out at him,”that’s NOT a Kneipe!” So I asked her what was
wrong with Kneipe, and she said “that’s where people hang out,
get drunk, fight and smoke cigarettes.” So I asked her what the
darn thing was anyway, what she’d call it, and she said it was
her “Gaststätte.” Gosh, I learned a long time not to argue with
Uli about anything. Probably too much of being a lawyer in her.
She’s got a heart of gold, but if she wants to call that little
room her Gaststätte, it's okay with me. So, this prompted me to
ask Hans, “well what’s the different between a Raum and a
Zimmer?” I instinctively get a feel for it, but never asked
anyone the direct question. He said a Raum is just a room in a
building, but not one you live in. A Zimmer would be any room in
a house or apartment, you use for living space. Sort of made
good sense to me. Sort of like der Saal. I think of a
Gerichtsaal. Obviously no one lives there, but it’s a room for a
particular purpose.
This just goes to show you how much work and time goes into
learning a language and straightening out all these little
nuances. Like in English you could tell a child who is
misbehaving, “Go to your room”, but according to Hans (not that
he’s an expert, even though he’s a native German speaker) you’d
have to use Zimmer in German.
But, I learned if you ask around with native speakers you don’t
always get the same answers to grammar or word usage questions.
Like I asked Hans if there was any difference between saying, “
Ich lasse es darauf ankommen” and “ich gehe das Risiko ein” and
he, kind of half asleep, said “the first one sounds more
sophisticated.” But I asked my fiends in the Braunschweig area
the same question yesterday and they said both mean the same
thing, one not being more sophisticated than the other. So, I
don’t know.
Getting back to Nikola’s last sentence, I think what threw me
off was when she wrote “genau wie den Autor (Künstler) ,
mich....” I think it was the word order or “den Maler” being so
close in the sentence to “mich” that through me off. Had she
said, “genau wie der Maler, ich.....” it would have been totally
clear what she meant. Something seemed a little off, so I just
assumed she that she was fascinated by the open spaces and
uniqueness of the place and forgot she was including der Maler.
Just to sum up, I had a German professor once who loved the old
Graf Eberstein song.
So, we’d get to listen to this:
“Zu Speyer im Saale, da hebt sich ein Klingen, mit Fackeln und
Kerzen ein Tanzen und Springen...”
Yeah, the song was written in 1815 so he’s having us listen to
1815 German? But I knew then the “Zu Speyer” was pretty archaic
when referring to a town. But, it does explain why you see so
many place names where something is “zu” then the name of a
place. I guess the little exercise taught me that much. I also
learned you could refer to a year one of two ways only. Just say
the year, 2019, easy. Or, alternatively you could say “im Jahre
2019.” So there as a time when I used to say “im Jahre 1980”,
but I checked and now just the year alone is said about 95% of
the time and only occasionally will you hear the “im Jahre”.
But, I have heard a lot of younger people say “in 2019”, right
out of the English style and I always have to cringe a bit when
I hear that.
But, anyway, thank you very much for your help! It was excellent
Alharacas :)
#Post#: 18033--------------------------------------------------
Re: Writing Challenge: Day 6
By: Alharacas Date: July 14, 2019, 6:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"Like I asked Hans if there was any difference between saying, “
Ich lasse es darauf ankommen” and “ich gehe das Risiko ein” and
he, kind of half asleep, said “the first one sounds more
sophisticated.” But I asked my fiends in the Braunschweig area
the same question yesterday and they said both mean the same
thing, one not being more sophisticated than the other. So, I
don’t know."
I tend to disagree with your friend Hans: both mean the same
thing, and both are used in spoken German, but in a formal
letter, I'd never write "ich lasse es darauf ankommen", I'd
always use "ich gehe das Risiko ein". :)
As to Raum vs. Zimmer, yes, I'd say the former is any space
enclosed by walls, while the latter can't really be used for any
room other than one you only sit and/or sleep in. Even if you
put a sofa in your kitchen, it's still a kitchen, you wouldn't
call it Zimmer. :)
#Post#: 18035--------------------------------------------------
Re: Writing Challenge: Day 6
By: Nikola Date: July 14, 2019, 6:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1225.msg18033#msg18033
date=1563147102]
As to Raum vs. Zimmer, yes, I'd say the former is any space
enclosed by walls, while the latter can't really be used for any
room other than one you only sit and/or sleep in. Even if you
put a sofa in your kitchen, it's still a kitchen, you wouldn't
call it Zimmer. :)
[/quote]
What about Badezimmer? Is it because you sit on the toilet?
Sleeping on the bathroom floor after a particularly wild night
probably doesn't count.
#Post#: 18037--------------------------------------------------
Re: Writing Challenge: Day 6
By: Alharacas Date: July 14, 2019, 7:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Nikola link=topic=1225.msg18035#msg18035
date=1563148083]
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1225.msg18033#msg18033
date=1563147102]
As to Raum vs. Zimmer, yes, I'd say the former is any space
enclosed by walls, while the latter can't really be used for any
room other than one you only sit and/or sleep in. Even if you
put a sofa in your kitchen, it's still a kitchen, you wouldn't
call it Zimmer. :)
[/quote]
What about Badezimmer? Is it because you sit on the toilet?
Sleeping on the bathroom floor after a particularly wild night
probably doesn't count.
[/quote]
I just knew somebody was going to ask about that... :D
For one thing, you'd never talk about the bathroom simply as
Zimmer, you'd always say either Bad or Badezimmer.
For example, if you came for a visit and asked me where you
could change (before going to a party or something), I might
point to my bedroom, the guest room, the living room or even the
dining room and say "Geh doch in das Zimmer da", but I'd never
say that if I meant the bathroom. That would be "Geh doch ins
Bad/Badezimmer".
For another, our bathrooms are a pretty modern invention, aren't
they? What people used to do when they wanted to have a bath was
to place a tub in a bedroom (or any other convenient room) and
then fill it by emptying buckets of hot water into it, didn't
they? And when you look at the way bathrooms used to be
furnished in some English country houses and old German mansions
(easy chairs, bookshelves, etc.), I suppose you can still see
where the Zimmer came from. ;)
#Post#: 18042--------------------------------------------------
Re: Writing Challenge: Day 6
By: SHL Date: July 15, 2019, 3:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1225.msg18033#msg18033
date=1563147102]
"Like I asked Hans if there was any difference between saying, “
Ich lasse es darauf ankommen” and “ich gehe das Risiko ein” and
he, kind of half asleep, said “the first one sounds more
sophisticated.” But I asked my fiends in the Braunschweig area
the same question yesterday and they said both mean the same
thing, one not being more sophisticated than the other. So, I
don’t know."
I tend to disagree with your friend Hans: both mean the same
thing, and both are used in spoken German, but in a formal
letter, I'd never write "ich lasse es darauf ankommen", I'd
always use "ich gehe das Risiko ein". :)
As to Raum vs. Zimmer, yes, I'd say the former is any space
enclosed by walls, while the latter can't really be used for any
room other than one you only sit and/or sleep in. Even if you
put a sofa in your kitchen, it's still a kitchen, you wouldn't
call it Zimmer. :)
[/quote]
Yes, I always take anything Hans tells me with a grain of salt.
He’s a truck driver so hardly a language authority. For that
matter, Uli is no language authority either, but she’s not one
to get into an extended discussion with about language. Oh my
god! I got into a discussion with her about the word, die
Semmel. I think she’s been in the South too long. I told her I
know Semmel as just Brötchen, but she insisted that die Semmel
was something everyone said throughout Germany, North, East,
West and South, and that it was always two round white bread
rolls sort of stuck together. If it wasn’t that it wasn’t
Semmel.
She told me she and Hans went to Österreich once and she had a
big disagreement with the waiter about the rolls and said the
Austrians talking nonsense and she couldn’t understand their
terms. So, being the strong-willed lady she was went through
every word she could think of before hitting upon the right one.
Hans couldn’t care less what you give him to eat. They are quite
a couple.
But, I asked him that very question about die Küche. And, he
told me that too it was a Zimmer, not a Raum, because it was in
the house. Of course, there is no word for Küche that contains
Zimmer I never heard of referring to die Küche as a Zimmer, so I
suppose it never comes up as a problem. You have a Schlafzimmer,
Badezimmer, Wohnzimmer- notice none are a Raum. So, the logic is
there. But, then you have der Keller. Is that a Raum or Zimmer?
Maybe neither, just der Keller. Or, der Dachboden? Same
problem, but since they all have their own names I suppose it
doesn’t matter.
Alharacas, but why in the formal letter would you never say,
“Ich lasse es darauf ankommen” and instead say, “Ich gehe das
Risiko ein”? You really are a wealth of information for which I
am grateful.
Just curious. I want to grasp the nuance.
#Post#: 18043--------------------------------------------------
Re: Writing Challenge: Day 6
By: Alharacas Date: July 15, 2019, 7:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the compliment, Steven, but as to the why of any of
those things - frankly, I have no idea. Why do we keep saying
kriegen for messages, jobs and the flu, but hardly ever write
it?
At a stretch, it might be that "es darauf ankommen lassen" is
such a vague expression once you start thinking about it.
Really, was läßt man auf was ankommen?
As to basement and attic, you'll often read in contracts "zu der
Wohnung gehört ein Kellerraum", meaning the basement is split
into various rooms/spaces, often separated only by flimsy wooden
boards or some chicken wire, just so every tenant will have a
place to store a bike or a few boxes. On the other hand, if a
basement is actually suitable for living in, you might say "im
Keller sind zwei weitere Zimmer". And the same is true for any
attic. :)
#Post#: 18045--------------------------------------------------
Re: Writing Challenge: Day 6
By: SHL Date: July 15, 2019, 8:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1225.msg18043#msg18043
date=1563194959]
Thanks for the compliment, Steven, but as to the why of any of
those things - frankly, I have no idea. Why do we keep saying
kriegen for messages, jobs and the flu, but hardly ever write
it?
At a stretch, it might be that "es darauf ankommen lassen" is
such a vague expression once you start thinking about it.
Really, was läßt man auf was ankommen?
As to basement and attic, you'll often read in contracts "zu der
Wohnung gehört ein Kellerraum", meaning the basement is split
into various rooms/spaces, often separated only by flimsy wooden
boards or some chicken wire, just so every tenant will have a
place to store a bike or a few boxes. On the other hand, if a
basement is actually suitable for living in, you might say "im
Keller sind zwei weitere Zimmer". And the same is true for any
attic. :)
[/quote]
Thanks Alharacas. Living spaces are Zimmer I suppose if within a
household, but the language is not that inflexible as Hans would
have suggested. If you can say der Kellerraum, there’s proof
right there. But, German does seem to use other words without
Raum for rooms within a household in which people spend less
time, like die Küche.
There's also a bit of flexibility in the language which some
German language schools try to oversimplify. For instance, I
took a Goethe Institut (GI) course a few years back ( which has
considerable shortcomings as a language school I might add- it’s
NO university) although they do have native speakers as
instructors. It was a C1,2 class, as I recall because in San
Francisco they never offer C2 classes, although with their
interview and Einstufungstest I qualified at the C2 level.
They taught that in the passive voice there was a simple rule if
the agent was identified (das Agens) that you always used “von”
to identify the agent if such agent was a person. If the agent
was a non-person object, you used “durch”.
So, when I looked into a Duden Grammatik book I discovered it
was far more complex than this and that their rule was not
always true.
“Enthält der Passivsatz eine Agensphrase, so ist sie in der
Regel mit der Präposition “von” angeschlossen.
Textsortengebunden (Verwaltungssprache) kann statt “von” die
Präposition seitens bzw. vonseiten erscheinen.
“Das kranke Kind wird von der Nachbarin gepflegt. Der Baum is
vom Blitz getroffen worden. Wir wurden von unseren Gefühlen
übermannt.
Then I thought, “since when is a Blitz a person??? Since when
are “Gefühlen” people??? Some rule the GI came up with.
“Handelt es sich nicht um ein willentlich verursachendes Agens,
so kann die Präposition “durch” gebraucht werden:
Er wurde (zufällig) durch eine johlende Menge aufgehalten. (Mit
anderer Bedeutung: Er wurde (von einer johlenden Menge)
aufgehalten, die ihn daran hindern wollte, das Podium zu
betreten.) Die Stadt wurde durch feindlich Bomben vollständig
zerstört.”
Then I wondered again, why does a “johlende Menge” not consist
of people? Yet they are using “durch” to identify the agent?
Again, some rule the GI invented. Not always true.
So, there is a lot more complexity to German grammar than I
think some would like to teach and that many assume.
#Post#: 18258--------------------------------------------------
Re: Writing Challenge: Day 6
By: SuKi Date: July 20, 2019, 1:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Nikola link=topic=1225.msg17949#msg17949
date=1563037632]
[img width=238
height=300]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Fragonard%2C_The_Reader.jpg/260px-Fragonard%2C_The_Reader.jpg[/img]
La lettrice
La lettrice è un dipinto di Jean-Honoré Fragonard. C'è una donna
in un vestito giallo. Lei legge un libro piccolo. Secondo
diverse fonti non si conosce questa donna, ma la ricerca nuova
ha rivelato che è dalla Gran Bretagna, le piace il mango (da qui
il vestito giallo) ed è una esperta linguista.
[/quote]
Aggiornamento dell’ultima ora
Le ultime richerche hanno rivelato che la lettrice di Fragonard
non era una gentildonna britannica, dopotutto. Invece, era una
sgualdrinetta di un bordello corso. Nei suoi ultimi anni, faceva
finta di essere una professoressa d’inglese e si divertiva
facendo i giochi di parole infantili. La sua specialità era
l’umorismo da gabinetto.
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