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#Post#: 17305--------------------------------------------------
How (not) to become a German
By: Alharacas Date: June 30, 2019, 6:20 am
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So... we've had a case of a guy first getting married to a
German woman, then getting married again in Syria. Later, when
applying for German citizenship, he neglected to tell the German
authorities about this second marriage. So, they tried to take
his German passport away again; he went to the courts which, for
some inexplicable reason - because no, bigamy is definitely not
legal in Germany - deferred the case, saying a second wife was
no obstacle to getting a German passport.
Remember: One. Single. Case. Being judged by somebody who must
have been, er, a bit absent-minded. And by no means resolved,
according to this:
HTML https://www.bverwg.de/pm/2018/36
(looking forward to hearing Steven's opinion about the article)
Cue public outcry, cue German Parliament - not normally known to
take swift action, whatever the reason - hurriedly reforming the
law of naturalization. Or rather, re-reforming it. Because, see,
it had been reformed in 2000. However, this first reform had
never been to the liking of the conservatives. Too clear-cut,
see. In order to get a German passport, you either get married
to a German citizen (and yeah, our authorities are just as quick
to suspect and as keen to prove marriage shams as they are in
the US), or you've been living in Germany for the required
number of years, can support yourself financially, and have
passed a test, proving your knowledge of the German language and
Germany's democratic institutions and processes (meaning a new
citizen is likely to know a lot more about those than roughly
98% of all born Germans). No other requirements, as far as I
know.
So, what's the new reform about?
- You're going to be a citizen on trial. For 10 bloody years.
Because obviously, creating 2nd class citizens is always a
sure-fire way to ensure cohesion within a society.
- "Einordnung in deutsche Lebensverhältnisse" (roughly:
integration into the German way of life) is emphasized. That bit
was also in the previous version, but never mind that.
Emphasizing it is supposed to calm down all of those upstanding
Germans who're seeing harems sprouting up all over their
neigbourhood.
Mind you, I'd be prepared to see this integration requirement as
a pretty good thing if it stopped parents from sending their -
often quite unwilling daughters - to the Middle East, in order
to marry them off. Unfortunately, nobody's yet discovered an
effective way of preventing this, and this re-reform is unlikely
to help, either.
What is likely is a wave of legal proceedings, because the real
new obstacle to naturalization is "Mitgliedschaft in einer
Terrormiliz" (being a member of a terrorist militia).
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm just as wary of people wanting to
make themselves (and an unspecified number of others) go boom as
the next person. However, there's that niggling question of who
decides which organization is labelled a terrorist militia,
isn't there? Keeping in mind what a convenient, frequently used
method it is, to just slap on that label, if you're a tyrant and
would like to keep those pesky people under control who keep
clamouring for freedom, democracy, or even, heaven forfend, the
right to an autonomous government, if they happen to be an
ethnic minority.
Not to mention the equally interesting question of how to
define, let alone prove "membership". I wonder if the esteemed
members of my parliament realize that terrorist organizations
rarely have neatly written lists of paying members. Yes, photos
of somebody waving the wrong flag and carrying placards saying
"Down with the pigs! Horses rock! Boxer for president!" would be
a strong indicator, but I'm not sure those placard carriers are
the people my government, or ordinary German citizens, should be
most worried about.
Most of all, I mind the idea of my government asking people to
lie, which is what I see as the most likely outcome. And how to
prove people are lying if you suspect that's what they're doing?
By asking their neighbours, teachers, friends, relatives, even,
to testify for or against them? Yikes. Thought police. Just what
the world needed more of.
HTML https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/staatsbuergerschaftsrecht-wird-geaendert-juristen-kritisieren-neue-huerden-auf-dem-weg-zum-deutschen-pass/24494586.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab
HTML https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/reform-im-staatsbuergerschaftsrecht-kein-einstieg-in.720.de.html?dram:article_id=452627
#Post#: 17308--------------------------------------------------
Re: How (not) to become a German
By: Truman Overby Date: June 30, 2019, 6:59 am
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Maybe I'm misreading you, but it seems to me your solution is to
not have any standards or guidelines codified. A person's word
is all that's needed. Correct?
#Post#: 17310--------------------------------------------------
Re: How (not) to become a German
By: NealC Date: June 30, 2019, 7:19 am
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Ahhhh immigration problems. I dont mean to be unsympathetic,
but it seems Merkel's government has brought this upon
themselves. The rank and file Germans are getting upset, and
perhaps not choosing the right course of action. But you really
cannot blame them, after all putting the stopper back in the
open bottle can be a difficult task.
Why is there a bigamy test case? Because adapting to their laws
and customs is the next step in the reverse assimilation
practiced by the west. And why do they send their children
abroad to find a spouse? Because the sons and daughters of
their adopted country are not good enough, Germany must be
changed.
Dont worry, all these weddings and the birth rate of the
newcomers will change things soon enough.
#Post#: 17312--------------------------------------------------
Re: How (not) to become a German
By: Alharacas Date: June 30, 2019, 8:23 am
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[quote author=The Artist formerly known as Truman Overby
link=topic=1189.msg17308#msg17308 date=1561895964]
Maybe I'm misreading you, but it seems to me your solution is to
not have any standards or guidelines codified. A person's word
is all that's needed. Correct?
[/quote]
Yes, you are. Misreading me.
I'm all for people having to learn my country's language, and
all for their being able to support themselves before they get a
German passport. I'm also all for asking, no, demanding respect
for our democratic institutions and processes (faulty as they
may be).
What I'm definitely not in favour of is asking people what they
think about X, Y and Z, and I'm particularly against bandying
the word "terrorist" about.
Just think about it, Jerry. Presumably, there's more than one
thing you and most other US citizens would want to defend, if
necessary gun in hand, isn't there? Like free speech, the right
to vote, that kind of thing? Correct? Well, there are plenty of
countries where this kind of behaviour would clearly mark you as
a terrorist, and where it would certainly lead to imprisonment,
probably torture and quite often to execution.
I know a woman who's currently living in Germany, a housewife
who wouldn't say boo to a goose. Keeps inundating people with
home-baked biscuits, keeps choking up with gratitude to my
country for, er, having done f*ck-all for her up to now, except
threatening to send her back to where she came from.
Recently, she received a document from her country of origin,
telling her if she returns, she'll be facing 12 years in prison
for being a "terrorist". (Yeah, I've seen the letter.) Her
crime? She belongs to a particular religious group,
conservative, but by no means fundamentalist, which happens to
have fallen out of favour with the powers that be in the country
she's from. And it's just a piece of luck that her government
hasn't managed to badger my government into putting this
particular group's name on their joint list of "terrorist
organizations" - yet.
#Post#: 17314--------------------------------------------------
Re: How (not) to become a German
By: Truman Overby Date: June 30, 2019, 9:11 am
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Does Germany have a problem with terrorists entering from other
lands? Of course they do. All countries do. And not just
civilized countries.
#Post#: 17319--------------------------------------------------
Re: How (not) to become a German
By: Alharacas Date: June 30, 2019, 1:21 pm
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By far the biggest problem I can see right now is Germans born
and bred, moreover ones who are supposed to protect people, who
instead keep amassing weapons and ammunition, and writing lists
about which people to kill first (politicians, trade union
leaders, civil rights activists) in some case of emergency yet
to be specified. Sigh.
The latest in a line of similar scandals involving policemen:
HTML https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/Nach-SEK-Festnahmen-Caffier-informiert-Innenausschuss,sek270.html
Oh, and FYI, Neal - President Erdogan is publicly bewailing the
dearth of children both in Turkey and among Turkish immigrants
in Europe:
HTML https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2017-03/recep-tayyip-erdogan-kinderkriegen-europa-aufruf
Perhaps our lifestyle (atheism, and a stubborn refusal to have
more than 2 children) is more contagious than you'd thought? ;)
#Post#: 17322--------------------------------------------------
Re: How (not) to become a German
By: NealC Date: June 30, 2019, 2:52 pm
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I wouldn't call you guys atheist (though plenty of US
Evangelicals would not hesitate) but definitely on the forward
edge of humanistic social democracy. Also, German birth rate is
217th in the world - 1.46/woman - the future is grim just in
that statistic.
The problem I have with Islam is that any generation can be
called to fundamentalism and frankly fundamentalist islam means
violence and misogyny. The Turks and the Germans have had close
ties for a long time, perhaps the German way is attractive.
Perhaps modern media and the internet will make a difference.
I am concerned the Syrians you have opened up to, the North
Africans invading southern europe and Italy, and the Ethiopians
and Somalis here are NOT as open to change or assimilation. I
fear what we will reap through our openess.
I should add that I do agree with some of your points, and I
certainly would not like to live afraid my minority ethnic or
religious group would be marked as 'terrorist' by some
government idiot.
#Post#: 17324--------------------------------------------------
Re: How (not) to become a German
By: Alharacas Date: June 30, 2019, 5:20 pm
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[quote author=NealC link=topic=1189.msg17322#msg17322
date=1561924333]
I wouldn't call you guys atheist (though plenty of US
Evangelicals would not hesitate) but definitely on the forward
edge of humanistic social democracy. Also, German birth rate is
217th in the world - 1.46/woman - the future is grim just in
that statistic.
[/quote]
Er, yes. That's precisely why we need immigrants. Preferably
young, well-educated and secular ones - like those who seem to
be flocking to Germany right now from Turkey (and Iran):
HTML https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/die-neuen-tuerkischen-einwanderer-gebildet-engagiert-und.976.de.html?dram:article_id=441339
[quote author=NealC link=topic=1189.msg17322#msg17322
date=1561924333]
The problem I have with Islam is that any generation can be
called to fundamentalism and frankly fundamentalist islam means
violence and misogyny. [/quote]
Neal, I hate to break it to you, but any kind of monotheism
seems to breed this interesting potential for violent
fundamentalism. As to misogyny, let's not talk about
Christianity's extensive history in that respect, shall we?
One of my pet theories is that religions have a sort of
life-cycle, just like empires and human beings. According to the
Islamic calender, it's now 1440 - and if you take a look at 15th
century in Europe, what you see is sects and monasteries
sprouting like mushrooms, heretics being burnt at the stakes all
over the place, Savonarola - a fundamentalist if ever there was
one - screaming his head off, Queen Isabella of Spain - another
batsh*t crazy fundamentalist - locking women up in monasteries
(they used to be quite pleasant places up until then) and
effectively banishing/murdering all of the intelligentsia in her
country (you might argue that was a "brain drain" Spain never
recovered from), the Inquisition being set up - I'm sure the
list could go on forever, I'm just too lazy to look it all up.
But basically, at the time, the only places where you could be
reasonably sure of being left in peace, religion-wise, were
Poland and the Ottoman empire. :D
#Post#: 17325--------------------------------------------------
Re: How (not) to become a German
By: NealC Date: June 30, 2019, 5:50 pm
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By fundamentalism I mean going back to "the book". When you go
back to the book in Christianity you do not get heretic burning,
monasteries, Inquisitions and the like. You do get love they
neighbor, do good to those who hurt you, do unto others as you
would have done unto you. Christians and organized religion can
do horrible things, but they are not called for in the Bible.
I would submit to you that you have the opposite in Islam, and
the reason many Western youth traveled to join ISIS was to rebel
against their socially acceptable, broad minded, secular
parents. The problem is their scriptures encourage it.
Why can't Germans get some children making going? It seems
sometimes that Europe is enamored of dark philosophy to the
point of self loathing. You are not going to get the modern
miracle of German industry in a future devoid of German culture
and values.
#Post#: 17331--------------------------------------------------
Re: How (not) to become a German
By: MartinSR Date: July 1, 2019, 1:20 am
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I was thinking about this difference in religions a few years
ago, and I came to the same conclusion as Alharacas. I tried to
understand why it is like that, and why they didn't learned from
the mistakes our ancestors have done. So I read a few fragments
of the Koran, which I found interesting. The conclusion was that
they actually learned from our experience and included the
rights to the self-defence.
According to the Bible the Christian has right to "turn the
other cheek". And the first Christians did it, what almost led
to their extinction.
What struck me in the Koran, were two fragments. I'm sorry for
the improper citation, but I read it a long time ago.
The first tells to respect both Jews and Christians, but not to
make friends of them, to not become like they are. On a simple
human level we may think that our ancestors were not so nice
people everyone would like to be friend with. On the more
theological level we may read it as a warning against the
attempts of converting people to other religions.
The other fragment is more direct. Don't do anything evil to
people of other religions because the God will punish you. But
when they try to convert you or do evil things against you, you
must defend yourself and the God will help you. It seems to be
obvious when we think about it, but many people may consider
even the existence of others as a danger to them - and it
legitimizes their attack. As we know in every community there
are people who take advantage of the others' low education and
poverty, and use them as their tools (not to say "as their
single-use weapons").
My knowledge is rather limited in this field. It was just my
attempt to understand what I see.
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