DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Even Greener Pastures
HTML https://evengreener.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Questions about the Use of Language
*****************************************************
#Post#: 17285--------------------------------------------------
The "it-can't-be-the-same-as-in-my-language" Factor
By: Nikola Date: June 29, 2019, 3:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, I didn't know what else to call it, maybe there is a term
for it. I'm talking about the natural instinct that makes
learners avoid constructions in their target language that sound
too much like what they would say in their native language.
You might say: "But Nikola, people do the exact opposite. They
make mistakes because they apply the rules of their own language
in their target language so what are you talking about?" I'm
talking about learners who have already reached a certain level
in their target language and who have learned some rules, in
particular ones that define the common word order. They've
learned that what they have to do with the sentence in their
native language is strip it down to mere ideas and reorganise
those, often using a different word order, parts of speech and
prepositions, in order not to sound too "foreign".
So you're at a point where you're proud to be able to suppress
your foreignness when suddenly, you hear a native speaker say
something that sounds like your native language translated
word-by-word. And you think "What? You're allowed to do that?!"
I've seen Czech people learning English experience this moment
when, after years of being told to use the prepositional phrase
with an indirect object,
I saved the last biscuit for you,
they find out they can squeeze the indirect object before the
direct one,
I saved you the last biscuit,
creating a sentence uncomfortably similar to a Czech one. Often,
their first reaction is "that sounds wrong".
When I started working in England, I brought my own mug to work.
It said Co tě nezabije, to tě posílí. A colleague of
mine asked what it said so I translated it as "If it doesn't
kill you, it makes you stronger", not realising there was such a
proverb in English. She said: "Oh, that's like our 'what doesn't
kill you makes you stronger' and I said "that's actually the
literal translation, I just didn't think I could say it like
that".
Have you ever experienced a moment like this?
#Post#: 17290--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "it-can't-be-the-same-as-in-my-language" Facto
r
By: SHL Date: June 29, 2019, 3:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Interesting question, Nikola.
Hum. Not being a teacher, I can’t really say how learners
approach this. I think a good rule of thumb is just to
reorganize a thought, or an expression, that you know to be
correct, until you encounter an alternative, which may or may
not be similar to one used in your own language, and never to
assume anything along the lines of similarities, until you are
100% sure. Assume nothing. I guess that has always been my
approach. Actually, because English is such a dominating
/domineering language on the world front, it sort of makes sense
that other languages would adopt expressions and idioms from
English, that are either very similar or direct translations,
into their own language and be okay with them. But, it’s all up
to the natives to do that.
But, I think I know what you are talking about.
Since you speak German, you can relate to this.
If you want to say in German, “that makes no sense”, the
technically correct translation is “Das ergibt keinen Sinn.”
But, we all know people do say, and have been saying for years,
“Das macht keinen Sinn”, just like English.
But, I read fairly recently, where someone wrote, that “das
macht keinen Sinn” was bad German and should be avoided, because
it’s just another example of German “word-aping”, as my former
Professor used to say. It’s not real German.It’s too much like
English.
But, I’ve heard highly respected native speakers, like Helmut
Schmidt, in interviews say this: “das macht keinen Sinn”, so I
will use it since I know it is okay. But, then I frequently lean
toward “ergibt” instead of “macht” in that sentence, only
because I like to use different words for the same thing, or
expressions sometimes, because other people do. I can’t say I’ve
ever experienced a “that can’t be right” feeling about it, but
it does seem a bit like cheating almost to me. But, I do think I
understand what you are getting at.
#Post#: 17294--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "it-can't-be-the-same-as-in-my-language" Facto
r
By: MartinSR Date: June 29, 2019, 5:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The thing I find interesting is that sometimes we not only
define a foreign language as something different to ours, but as
something that must be similar to other languages we've learned
- especially to the one we use most. To be more specific -
people who are not native English speakers but use English much
more than the other languages they learned (like many users of
this board, I think), compare the language they know to
English.
Once I answered a question on It...i questions section. The
question was about Croatian (which I don't speak, but understand
simple sentences) and the person who asked was Ukrainian (if I
remember it well) declaring herself as being native in two
Slavic languages (the 2nd one was Russian obviously). The
question was in English. She wondered why the 3rd person past
tense ("was") is sometimes "bio" and sometimes "bila". The
answer was that the past tense has separate male and female
forms in Slavic languages. But she probably tried to think "too
English" to notice that.
Another strange situation was when I tried to write a notebook
entry in Russian (after over 20 years of not using it). The
people commented that my writing was understandable, but sounded
a bit artificially, like "literal translation from English". Did
I do that? Russian should be more similar to Polish than to
English. And I learned it much earlier than English. Was I
thinking in English when writing that entry? I didn't noticed.
Maybe subconsciously... Or maybe I just avoided everything that
might be similar to my native tongue.
#Post#: 17295--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "it-can't-be-the-same-as-in-my-language" Facto
r
By: Alharacas Date: June 29, 2019, 6:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately, I never remember to make a note when it happens,
that's why I can't give you any examples. But yes, every once in
a while, there are bits of Polish which make me think "That's
exactly like German!", followed by "I'd never have dared to say
it like that".
#Post#: 17302--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "it-can't-be-the-same-as-in-my-language" Facto
r
By: Nikola Date: June 30, 2019, 3:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks everyone. Yes, SHL, I think you understand what I mean.
It does feel like cheating. I wonder if native speakers of
German ever think twice before putting a verb at the end of an
English sentence, wondering "am I doing this because it's
correct or because I'm German?"
I find the story about the Ukrainian/Russian speaker needing to
check about different word endings for different gender peculiar
to say the least, especially as she wasn't just checking if that
was the case, she didn't know why it was so.
#Post#: 17309--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "it-can't-be-the-same-as-in-my-language" Facto
r
By: Alharacas Date: June 30, 2019, 7:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Nikola link=topic=1188.msg17302#msg17302
date=1561882892]
Thanks everyone. Yes, SHL, I think you understand what I mean.
It does feel like cheating. I wonder if native speakers of
German ever think twice before putting a verb at the end of an
English sentence, wondering "am I doing this because it's
correct or because I'm German?"
[/quote]
Can't speak for anybody else, but I don't, not about verb
placement. Prepositions are a different matter altogether. The
older I get, the more I find myself doubting my instincts - and
rightly so. Sigh.
[quote author=Nikola link=topic=1188.msg17302#msg17302
date=1561882892]
I find the story about the Ukrainian/Russian speaker needing to
check about different word endings for different gender peculiar
to say the least, especially as she wasn't just checking if that
was the case, she didn't know why it was so.
[/quote]
Er... no. Not peculiar in the least. You try asking any Polish
speaker who's never wasted a thought on his native language why
the endings change when you switch from saying "Lubię
białe wino" (I like white wine, accusative) to "Nie
lubię czerwonego wina" (I don't like red wine, genitive),
and in all likelihood they're going to look at you as if you'd
asked them why some wines were red while others were white, why
people die, or why dogs bark. (I know. I've tried. And one of
those I asked had a degree in German philology.)
Failing that, ask any ordinary German why it's "der gute
Schnaps" but "ein guter Schnaps" and watch them flounder and
drown in the intricacies of a bit of grammar they use every day.
:D
#Post#: 17328--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "it-can't-be-the-same-as-in-my-language" Facto
r
By: Susan Date: June 30, 2019, 10:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I have an example of this from my lesson today. We were
watching this movie, ¨Temple Grandin¨, a fact-based movie about
an autistic woman. (it is a good movie that I had not heard of
before, although she is a very interesting person. I had read
one of her books.)
HTML https://www.amazon.com/Temple-Grandin-Claire-Danes/dp/B009MEEZXI
In this movie there is a flashback of a memory of her mother
when Temple was a child, laying on the floor writhing in rage
while other adults looked on during her birthday party. I tried
to figure out how to describe it, and said, ¨Well in English I
would have said she ´she lost it.´ But you wouldn´t say it that
way in Spanish, literally ¨lo perdío,¨ would you?¨ To which he
replied, yes, we say it exactly that way.
The grammar was not tricky but somehow I always expect things
that are expressions, like metaphors, to be different instead of
exactly the same in Spanish.
#Post#: 17334--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "it-can't-be-the-same-as-in-my-language" Facto
r
By: Nikola Date: July 1, 2019, 2:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Alharacas, I think we'd have to get someone like Irena or Pasha
to tell us just how surprising it would be for a speaker of
Russian/Ukrainian to encounter what Martin describes:
[quote author=MartinSR link=topic=1188.msg17294#msg17294
date=1561847102]
Once I answered a question on It...i questions section. The
question was about Croatian (which I don't speak, but understand
simple sentences) and the person who asked was Ukrainian (if I
remember it well) declaring herself as being native in two
Slavic languages (the 2nd one was Russian obviously). The
question was in English. She wondered why the 3rd person past
tense ("was") is sometimes "bio" and sometimes "bila". The
answer was that the past tense has separate male and female
forms in Slavic languages. But she probably tried to think "too
English" to notice that.
[/quote]
We're talking about verbs in different Slavic languages and the
fact that the past tense reflects the gender. As far as I'm
aware, this is how it works in other Slavic languages the
student speaks. Now, I know that people's ability to reflect on
their own language can be quite limited, but this should, as far
as the level of difficulty is concerned, be nothing like
explaining the declension of adjectives to a non-native speaker.
Also, there is no reason why case endings are the way they are.
You can't really explain why. But you can explain why the same
verb in the past tense has multiple endings - because it
reflects multiple genders.
#Post#: 17337--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "it-can't-be-the-same-as-in-my-language" Facto
r
By: MartinSR Date: July 1, 2019, 4:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The thing I can say as the defence of the girl who asked the
question is that the word "bio" may be misleading for people
from the North (West and East) Slavic groups. We would expect
the male form similar to "bil" (like Polish "był" and
Russian "был"). The word "bio" makes us think
of something like shortened "biological".
But when we hear the way they pronounce it (this "o" sounds like
something between "o" and "l") it becomes more familiar.
#Post#: 17338--------------------------------------------------
Re: The "it-can't-be-the-same-as-in-my-language" Facto
r
By: Alharacas Date: July 1, 2019, 4:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
No, no, Nikola, I understood perfectly well. My Polish is
sufficient by now to know that this Ukranian woman's question
was on a par with asking why it's sometimes "był/o" and
sometimes "była" in Polish. :)
And my question about liking/not liking something referred to
the reasons for changing the case. The answer I would have
needed, but which none of the native speakers was able to
provide - remember, this was just after I'd started learning
Polish! - was "In a positive sentence, you use the accusative,
but if it's a negative sentence, you need to use the genitive".
I'm sure you'll admit that was a pretty reasonable question,
given that German has nothing like it. :D
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page