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#Post#: 16853--------------------------------------------------
JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner" SPLIT FROM Vegetarian, Veg
an, Gay
By: Truman Overby Date: June 14, 2019, 7:13 am
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Steve, I don't claim to be a German speaker but it's been
disproven years ago that JFK did not say that he's a jelly
doughnut. The wording was twisted to make a joke or to embarrass
the man. I'd like to have Susanne set this straight.
#Post#: 16854--------------------------------------------------
Re: JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner" SPLIT FROM Vegetarian,
Vegan, Gay
By: Nikola Date: June 14, 2019, 7:21 am
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Well, I don't want to delve too deeply into this but here's what
I found:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GKd50lrROc
(watch from 1:55)
#Post#: 16856--------------------------------------------------
Re: JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner" SPLIT FROM Vegetarian,
Vegan, Gay
By: NealC Date: June 14, 2019, 7:35 am
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So the question is, what did the crowd understand that phrase to
mean?
Did the crowd take it as a confusing gaffe, a ridiculous
mis-statement? From the crowd reaction alone it seems that they
understood his point - people who stand for liberty and freedom
identify with the residents of West Berlin.
It was afterwards that the pundits and talking heads poked fun.
#Post#: 16857--------------------------------------------------
Re: JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner" SPLIT FROM Vegetarian,
Vegan, Gay
By: Truman Overby Date: June 14, 2019, 7:50 am
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HTML https://www.huffpost.com/entry/did-jfk-say-he-was-a-doughnut_n_3500307?guccounter=1
#Post#: 16868--------------------------------------------------
Re: JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner" SPLIT FROM Vegetarian,
Vegan, Gay
By: Alharacas Date: June 14, 2019, 11:45 am
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[quote author=The Artist formerly known as Truman Overby
link=topic=1153.msg16853#msg16853 date=1560514423]
Steve, I don't claim to be a German speaker but it's been
disproven years ago that JFK did not say that he's a jelly
doughnut. The wording was twisted to make a joke or to embarrass
the man. I'd like to have Susanne set this straight.
[/quote]
Glad to oblige, TAFKNATO. :D
No, the wording wasn't twisted, as far as I know. It's just that
it's an excellent example for what happens when somebody
stumbles across a word from a foreign language without realizing
how and where it's usually used. Then...
Clueless: "Hey! They tell me a Berliner is a pancake. Or a
doughnut. Or something. That true?"
German native speaker: "Er, no. Actually, a Berliner is a person
from Berlin. To the overwhelming majority of Germans this is the
only meaning of the word. Particularly in Berlin and its
surroundings! Although quite a few people might understand you
if you were in a bakery and pointing to the pastry in question.
But then, they'd also sell it to you if you called it a Martian,
you know."
Clueless: "Majority, huh? What about the others?"
German native speaker: "Well, in the Rhineland, particularly in
Cologne, people do refer to this particular kind of pancake as
Berliner Pfannkuchen, in short: Berliner. But..."
Clueless: "Yeah! You hear that, Rick? That's what this guy on
the bus told us! They do call those pancakes Berliners in
Germany!"
German native speaker: "No. Please. Listen to me. In Berlin,
this kind of pastry is called Pfannekuchen. If you insisted on
wanting to buy a Berliner in a Berlin bakery, they'd just think
you were a nutcase. If you tried it in Bavaria, they'd give you
short shrift, because they call them Krapfen. Faschingskrapfen,
to be exact. Because, see, it's actually a special..."
Clueless: "Awesome! So, when Kennedy made his speech, he said he
was a pancake, did he? He really said he was a pancake! That's
just great! Can't wait to tell my pals! They're just going to
piss themselves laughing!"
In short: everybody was cheering, all of the hundreds of
thousands of real, live, anguished Berliners were deeply touched
and overjoyed to have President Kennedy showing solidarity with
them. And not because of some sort of imaginary linguistic
blunder. I know this. Because, see, I've met people who were
there, listening to the speech. And when you tell them about the
pancake story, they'll just look at you blankly.
#Post#: 16870--------------------------------------------------
Re: JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner" SPLIT FROM Vegetarian,
Vegan, Gay
By: SHL Date: June 14, 2019, 1:12 pm
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[quote author=The Artist formerly known as Truman Overby
link=topic=1153.msg16853#msg16853 date=1560514423]
Steve, I don't claim to be a German speaker but it's been
disproven years ago that JFK did not say that he's a jelly
doughnut. The wording was twisted to make a joke or to embarrass
the man. I'd like to have Susanne set this straight.
[/quote]
NEAL! What is happening to my posts? I posted a detailed reply
to this earlier and poof! It’s no where to be found!
So, now I have to start all over again. Ugh.
It was probably too long anyway, like most of my posts, so I’ll
summarize (I did really want Alharacas to see it because she’s
the expert). This is not starting out to be a good day and I
think my blood pressure is going up! And I probably need another
blood pressure pill and should take another tranquilizer!
Anyway, yes Jerry there has been a controversy about this for
the last 40 years. The controversy was popularized in the 1980s
when we all laughed and said “JFK made a fool of himself in
Berlin with his “Ich bin ein Berliner” speech. He just said he
was a jelly donut.” (I love Berliner Pfannkuchen by the way. I
always buy them with coffee, but in a bakery I go to in Berlin,
but they just call them a Berliner).
I read both the German and English Wikipedia articles on it and
looked at a few other sources. Obviously, no one in the crowd
thought JFK was referring to himself as a jelly donut, so there
was no misunderstanding. In fact, JFK didn’t even speak any
language other than English, and certainly not German, so he had
professional translators write the line and a couple of other
lines in German he interjected into his English speech. He wrote
notes of how he thought they should be pronounced (he had a very
heavy American accent- in fact he uttered another line or two in
German that I could barely understand because of the accent was
so heavy).
What JFK meant to say was he felt in solidarity with the people
of Berlin. So, his speech writer should have said THAT in German
and not relied on that lousy translation (my opinion). When you
think about it, it would have been equally as confusing and
wrong had he said “Ich bin Berliner” because he didn’t live
there, and that would have sounded silly too.
These are two things I culled from the internet:
“Kennedy’s famous line was penned by someone who was raised
within Berlin itself and was an accomplished and highly regarded
translator in his own right. In proclaiming “Ich bin ein
Berliner,” therefore, JFK was no more referring to himself as a
pastry than someone calling himself a “New Yorker” would have
been understood by Americans as styling himself to be a magazine
or a town car. Just as “I’m American” and “I’m an American” are
both correct, so are “Ich bin ein Berliner” and “Ich bin
Berliner.” (In fact, some German speakers would regard the
former to be the more correct for someone who was speaking
figuratively, as Kennedy was.)”
I personally disagree with the author, but maybe that’s just my
preference. (I’ve just never heard anyone say “Ich bin ein
Berliner” before or anything like it.)
Another quote is telling;
“Despite widespread claims to the contrary in most German
grammars and textbooks, it is not incorrect to use an indefinite
article before an indication of a person's origin, profession.
As explained in the Duden-Grammatik: "Der indefinite Artikel
wird beim prädikativen Nominativ [...] oft weggelassen, wenn
damit die Zugehörigkeit zu einer sozial etablierten und
anerkannten Gruppe (Nationalität, Herkunft, Beruf, Funktion,
Weltanschauung, Religion, gesellschaftlicher Status usw.)
angegeben wird (a). Zum Teil bestehen regionale Unterschiede im
Gebrauch; ein strikter Standard hat sich nicht herausgebildet
(b): (a) Sie wird _ Hochbauzeichnerin. Er bleibt _ Junggeselle.
(b) Er ist (ein) Engländer. Sie ist (eine) Heidelbergerin."
(Duden-Grammatik, 8. ed. 2009, p. 331”
Duden might say that the indefinite article is “often” omitted
with certain nouns, but that was not what I was taught in the
70s and 80s. I was taught it was always omitted with certain
nouns and it is not optional to omit it. And, I’ve never heard
anyone use an indefinite article not followed by an adjective
before those certain sorts of nouns, either in writing or in
speech. Not once. The rule is if the noun is not preceded by an
adjective, the indefinite article ein or eine is omitted as long
as the noun refers to origin, profession, an official position,
a worldview, a religion, or a social status. Then examples are
given. That’s what I learned and all I’ve ever heard when native
speakers speak and I’ve never seen it written otherwise, ever.
#Post#: 16871--------------------------------------------------
Re: JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner" SPLIT FROM Vegetarian,
Vegan, Gay
By: Truman Overby Date: June 14, 2019, 1:18 pm
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Steve, Alharacas has a very detailed answer. And she's a native
speaker. It's worth reading.
#Post#: 16872--------------------------------------------------
Re: JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner" SPLIT FROM Vegetarian,
Vegan, Gay
By: Truman Overby Date: June 14, 2019, 1:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1153.msg16868#msg16868
date=1560530757]
In short: everybody was cheering, all of the hundreds of
thousands of real, live, anguished Berliners were deeply touched
and overjoyed to have President Kennedy showing solidarity with
them. And not because of some sort of imaginary linguistic
blunder. I know this. Because, see, I've met people who were
there, listening to the speech. And when you tell them about the
pancake story, they'll just look at you blankly.
[/quote]
#Post#: 16873--------------------------------------------------
Re: JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner" SPLIT FROM Vegetarian,
Vegan, Gay
By: SHL Date: June 14, 2019, 1:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=The Artist formerly known as Truman Overby
link=topic=1153.msg16872#msg16872 date=1560537225]
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1153.msg16868#msg16868
date=1560530757]
In short: everybody was cheering, all of the hundreds of
thousands of real, live, anguished Berliners were deeply touched
and overjoyed to have President Kennedy showing solidarity with
them. And not because of some sort of imaginary linguistic
blunder. I know this. Because, see, I've met people who were
there, listening to the speech. And when you tell them about the
pancake story, they'll just look at you blankly.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Oh Jerry, I know that. Everyone knows that. JFK didn’t even
speak German. He’s obviously not to blame.
All I am saying is he had a lousy translator who could have and
should have expressed this sentiment differently. He could have
easily avoided the later jokes.
#Post#: 16874--------------------------------------------------
Re: JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner" SPLIT FROM Vegetarian,
Vegan, Gay
By: SHL Date: June 14, 2019, 1:50 pm
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By the was, here’s a Berliner. They’re great.
[img width=300
height=225]
HTML https://i.ibb.co/RDSt3xN/C7-D58-C04-BBD9-4-BD5-A9-A0-85-DE4-C8379-B6.png[/img]
HTML https://ibb.co/9rvBbFh
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