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#Post#: 16912--------------------------------------------------
Loanwords SPLIT FROM Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: Truman Overby Date: June 15, 2019, 4:08 pm
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[quote author=SHL link=topic=1153.msg16911#msg16911
date=1560632123]
The number of American/English words in German today is
appalling.
[/quote]
Oh, that's nothing, Herr Steve. You ought to count up the number
of German words that have insinuated themselves into English.
It's appalling, I tell you! Kindergarten, for example. What's
wrong with simply saying classes for little kids? Pass the
smelling salts. The pure English had been corrupted and polluted
for too long! Hey, I'm sounding like a Frenchman.
I am curious why it bothers you so much. It's not your native
tongue. If they don't care, why should you?
#Post#: 16913--------------------------------------------------
Re: Loanwords SPLIT FROM Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: SHL Date: June 15, 2019, 5:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=The Artist formerly known as Truman Overby
link=topic=1153.msg16912#msg16912 date=1560632914]
[quote author=SHL link=topic=1153.msg16911#msg16911
date=1560632123]
The number of American/English words in German today is
appalling.
[/quote]
Oh, that's nothing, Herr Steve. You ought to count up the number
of German words that have insinuated themselves into English.
It's appalling, I tell you! Kindergarten, for example. What's
wrong with simply saying classes for little kids? Pass the
smelling salts. The pure English had been corrupted and polluted
for too long! Hey, I'm sounding like a Frenchman.
I am curious why it bothers you so much. It's not your native
tongue. If they don't care, why should you?
[/quote]
Jerry, because I want to keep the German language pure,
unadulterated! (Just kidding)
Remember when the French used to be like that about French? I
think they’ve given up on it now. That old clip I posted with
Noam Chomsky mentioned it. He said just about every national
language has this sort of mythology to it, that it has to remain
“pure”, which he laughingly said didn’t mean anything. He said
he didn’t know if it had ever been studied, but it was kind of
extreme with the French, almost comical. And, he gave an
example.
I have my old passports which were written in English and in
French. My new one is in English, French and now Spanish. (Most
people pay no attention to this.) I sort of get the Spanish
part, but why in the world would French be in there? In Canada,
yeah. I could understand that. But here? I always thought it was
due to some UN resolution the French pushed through decades ago
or something, because they really wanted French to become the
international language.
I have no idea why languages change like this. You can draw some
assumptions. Like with the computer age, the “internet” is going
to be “das Internet” in German. Same with der Computer, German
has that word too of course but it always had der Rechner as
well because computers aren’t new.
I think movies, music and TV have a lot to do with it. They get
our stuff but we don’t get much of theirs. And, although it’s
just my personal observation, Germans sort of like English, or
at least English words, for some odd reason. I never understood
that. So, I think that means they readily adopt English words
like “sorry” when there really is no reason for it.
But, English is not like that. While there are a few German
words English has adopted, they pale in comparison to the number
of English words German has taken on.
So, if the French are still wishing to keep their language
“pure”, and they may have given up on it, the Germans seem to
never have had that sentiment.
#Post#: 16921--------------------------------------------------
Re: Loanwords SPLIT FROM Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: Alharacas Date: June 16, 2019, 7:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=SHL link=topic=1153.msg16913#msg16913
date=1560637737]
And, although it’s just my personal observation, Germans sort of
like English, or at least English words, for some odd reason. I
never understood that. So, I think that means they readily adopt
English words like “sorry” when there really is no reason for
it.
But, English is not like that. While there are a few German
words English has adopted, they pale in comparison to the number
of English words German has taken on.
So, if the French are still wishing to keep their language
“pure”, and they may have given up on it, the Germans seem to
never have had that sentiment.
[/quote]
This would merit a thread of its own, I think. Feel free to
split, Nikola. :)
Steven, in case you're not aware of this: what Germans used to
say instead of "Sorry" was neither Entschuldigung nor
Verzeihung, but, er, [i]Pardon[/i]. Pronounced with a French
nasal at the end. As my mother still does. ;)
Actually, German's had perhaps more than its fair share of
purges. Without checking, I can think of at least two or three.
The first one came quite early on, in the 16th or 17th century,
when they tried to get rid of Latin loanwords. Until then, if I
remember correctly, the German word for "surface" was
"Superficies", which was replaced by "Oberfläche". A couple of
hundred years later, it was about eliminating the arch-enemy,
French.
And I'm sure everybody will be able to guess when last act of
"purification" took place, non-specific, but actually also
mostly about French. That's when we got Bahnsteig instead of
"Perron" (platform) and Gehweg instead of "Trottoir" (sidewalk).
People did accept these newly minted German words (mainly
because everybody employed in any sort of official capacity was
obliged to use them, I suspect), but I don't think any normal
person felt they were a real improvement.
Mixed into those purges were almost continuous efforts to at
least "Germanize" orthography, wherever particularly obstinate
loanwords simply refused to leave the language. Thus, we write
Perücke instead of perruque and Zentrum instead of "Centrum". As
it's only been about 20 years since the last concerted effort of
this kind was made (Friseur -> Frisör; Delphin -> Delfin), I'm
confidently looking forward to seeing delightful little monsters
like "gugeln" and "Softwär" appear - all in good time. ;D
What about Serbian, Czech, Japanese, Swiss German, or Georgian,
for example?
#Post#: 16923--------------------------------------------------
Re: Loanwords SPLIT FROM Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: MartinSR Date: June 16, 2019, 9:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
In Polish we have many loanwords coming to our language at
various stages. Some are acquired recently, mainly due to the
technological revolution, while the others are used for
centuries.
Poland has been created in 10th century from several Slavic
nations. During over the 1000 years it was divided several times
and reunited. Some parts of it were incorporated into other
countries for centuries. Some of these countries forced their
language and culture trying to replace ours. The other thing is
that Polish language has been used in literature and
administration since 16th century. Until then Latin was the
official language used for writing. And I can imagine the spoken
Polish wasn't homogenous (I remember significant differences
between regions even in the times I was a child). It's probably
similar to Italy or Spain where everyone speaks the local
language or dialect with his family and friends.
So the impact of other languages on Polish was enormous.
I read about various attempts to get rid of some loanwords, but
inventing Polish neologisms in place of the well known
loanwords, usually leads to an artificial weird language. I've
read a text called "Siedząc w szlafroku" (sitting in a
bathrobe / dressing gown) where the author starting from
attempts done to replace German "Schlafrock" in Polish with
"podomka", points to the fact it comes from Latin "domus", and
further tries to reinvent the new words to those we use
everyday. The conclusion was that we would have to recreate our
language to do it.
#Post#: 16929--------------------------------------------------
Re: Loanwords SPLIT FROM Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: SHL Date: June 16, 2019, 10:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1161.msg16921#msg16921
date=1560687751]
[quote author=SHL link=topic=1153.msg16913#msg16913
date=1560637737]
And, although it’s just my personal observation, Germans sort of
like English, or at least English words, for some odd reason. I
never understood that. So, I think that means they readily adopt
English words like “sorry” when there really is no reason for
it.
But, English is not like that. While there are a few German
words English has adopted, they pale in comparison to the number
of English words German has taken on.
So, if the French are still wishing to keep their language
“pure”, and they may have given up on it, the Germans seem to
never have had that sentiment.
[/quote]
This would merit a thread of its own, I think. Feel free to
split, Nikola. :)
Steven, in case you're not aware of this: what Germans used to
say instead of "Sorry" was neither Entschuldigung nor
Verzeihung, but, er, [i]Pardon[/i]. Pronounced with a French
nasal at the end. As my mother still does. ;)
Actually, German's had perhaps more than its fair share of
purges. Without checking, I can think of at least two or three.
The first one came quite early on, in the 16th or 17th century,
when they tried to get rid of Latin loanwords. Until then, if I
remember correctly, the German word for "surface" was
"Superficies", which was replaced by "Oberfläche". A couple of
hundred years later, it was about eliminating the arch-enemy,
French.
And I'm sure everybody will be able to guess when last act of
"purification" took place, non-specific, but actually also
mostly about French. That's when we got Bahnsteig instead of
"Perron" (platform) and Gehweg instead of "Trottoir" (sidewalk).
People did accept these newly minted German words (mainly
because everybody employed in any sort of official capacity was
obliged to use them, I suspect), but I don't think any normal
person felt they were a real improvement.
Mixed into those purges were almost continuous efforts to at
least "Germanize" orthography, wherever particularly obstinate
loanwords simply refused to leave the language. Thus, we write
Perücke instead of perruque and Zentrum instead of "Centrum". As
it's only been about 20 years since the last concerted effort of
this kind was made (Friseur -> Frisör; Delphin -> Delfin), I'm
confidently looking forward to seeing delightful little monsters
like "gugeln" and "Softwär" appear - all in good time. ;D
What about Serbian, Czech, Japanese, Swiss German, or Georgian,
for example?
[/quote]
Nikola split the thread right before I posted, so her timing was
a bit off (I’ve not gotten out of bed yet, it's only 8:45...
But, anyway I wrote:
Thank you Alharacas for your informative post. I always love
hearing you inform us about German etymology, and the German
language in general. Some here might have noticed my fondness
for the German language (I’m not sure Neal and Jerry have quite
noticed this yet....... but, it is a distinct possibility
however 8) )
Pardon ist flagged as veraltend by Duden and LEO as well, with
LEO’s Worthäufigkeit (word frequency for anyone else reading
this except Nikola and Sofia) at 3 out of 7, and the
Wortverlaufskurve (sort of the curve showing its use) only at
2.2 in 1960 and a 1.1 in 2019. (To compare a really common word
like das Beispiel, Beispiel comes in on LEO’s Worthäufigkeit 5
out of 7, and a Wortverlaufskurve of 300 (Frequenz) in 1960 and
Frequenz of 280 today.)
One of my favorite expressions was zum Exempel, but
unfortunately it’s also considered veraltend like Pardon. My
former German professor from Hamburg used to say it all the
time, but she was born in 1921 and died this January at 97. Now
that’s a perfectly nice expression and could be a nice little
alternative to zum Beispiel so why does it have to go and we get
Airport and hi instead, like we need Airport? We really need hi?
What???? Who adopts these kooky English words and why use
them?
Zum Exempel appears in Franz Carl Weiskopf’s Abschied von
Frieden, published in 1950 and is flagged as veraltend in LEO,
and quoted “es kommt nicht leicht was Besseres nach. Zum
Exempel.....wenn der Erzherzog-Thronfolger Franz Ferdinand
Kaiser wird” (Weiskopf, Abschied v. Frieden, 1,383)
Exempel appears to have a Latin origin, but it still faded.
Exempel still can be used in other constructions so it’s doing a
bit better than Pardon with a Worthäufigkeit of 4 on a scale of
1-7 and a declining Wortverlaufskurve of a high in around 1965
of 4 and now a 2 in 2019 (that word is also flagged as
Bildungssprachlich as many of my former professor’s German words
were she used.)
My other German professor told us to never use the word
“Charterflug” in the 70s, that it wasn’t a German word and no
one would understand it (we didn’t believe him- he was a German
language purist, and only wanted us to read Goethe and listen to
Wagner and not read “degenerate” modern German writers like
Thomas Mann or Günter Grass) , and Charterflug was just an
example of German “word-aping” as he called it and to say
“Pachtflug” instead (I think he made that word up, but it wasn’t
a bad attempt since a Pacht as you know is a lease of
something). And it Software ever gets spelled “Softwär” or
googeln “gugeln” I will definitely have to reach for the
nitroglycerin pills to prevent a heart attack. The beautiful
German language being ruined.
As to the French words being purged, they never purged das
Pissoir, although it’s flagged as veraltend too and has a use
frequency now in LEO as a 0.3 and a 0.0 prior to 1950. But, I’ve
seen it on roadside stops in Northern Germany. I always thought
it was kind of cute. Reminds me in English of calling a urinal a
“pisser” :D
French has got some crazy false cognates too. Like I’
avertissement. Sounds like an advertisement, instead of a
warning. Sort of like saying, “a bit of an advertisement here
folks, but if you touch this high voltage wire you could die.
#Post#: 16930--------------------------------------------------
Re: Loanwords SPLIT FROM Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: Truman Overby Date: June 16, 2019, 11:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
A bit of trivia, Steve. Do you know that here in the US we used
the French aerodrome and aeroplane until the early 1950s, or so?
#Post#: 16931--------------------------------------------------
Re: Loanwords SPLIT FROM Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: SHL Date: June 16, 2019, 11:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=The Artist formerly known as Truman Overby
link=topic=1161.msg16930#msg16930 date=1560700800]
A bit of trivia, Steve. Do you know that here in the US we used
the French aerodrome and aeroplane until the early 1950s, or so?
[/quote]
I used to fly small planes and got a pilot’s license at 19,
which is why I have an interest in aircraft, but I haven’t flown
a plane in 41 years, but yes, I knew of the word aerodrome. That
used to appear on our old maps. I have seen airplane spelled
aeroplane, but that’s more of a minor spelling and pronunciation
change, wouldn’t you say? Not a complete dropping of the word.
Aerodrome also hasn’t really disappeared, it’s just become part
of pilot jargon, as far as I can tell, and I think some pilots
may still use it today.
But, English has no main language authority, so it’s hard to
track language trends in English except in the broad sense, like
looking at a 1611 King James Bible, or something. We all know
people don’t talk like that anymore.
But, you are right. There are a few old words, like 1950s and
earlier words that have long disappeared. Nothing comes to mind
off the top of my head, except for a few words from the 60s like
groovy, but those were more teenager slang words.
#Post#: 16932--------------------------------------------------
Re: Loanwords SPLIT FROM Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: Truman Overby Date: June 16, 2019, 11:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=SHL link=topic=1161.msg16931#msg16931
date=1560701311]
it’s just become part of pilot jargon, as far as I can tell, and
I think some pilots may still use it today.
[/quote]
I flew cargo aircraft in the US and never heard a pilot say
either aerodrome or aeroplane.
#Post#: 16941--------------------------------------------------
Re: Loanwords SPLIT FROM Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: SHL Date: June 16, 2019, 1:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
That’s interesting, but when I went through a flight training
course from 1976-1977, I we used to see the word aerodrome on
the maps, and I even used to hear the word occasionally spoken
in ground school. I wouldn’t say it was extensively used, but it
was used now and again.
It could have been the instructors were trying to impress
everyone by using aerodrome, a word they might have considered
technical aeronautical jargon. But, yes I learned that in flight
school. As far as aeroplane, that’s to me just a different
spelling of airplane, sort of like colour vs. color. Except, of
course, the pronunciation is slightly different I suppose.
#Post#: 16945--------------------------------------------------
Re: Loanwords SPLIT FROM Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: Truman Overby Date: June 16, 2019, 6:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I flew in Canada too and never heard it there either, Steve.
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