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#Post#: 16983--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning Persian - resources and progress (or lack thereof)
By: Aliph Date: June 19, 2019, 12:24 pm
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One book can’t teach you everything.
I used Assimil for Spanish a long time ago, I found it handy,
liked the audio but the content of the texts was tasteless,
outdated, not funny at all.
I bought some years ago the first volume for Arabic and found it
good for grammar, the compact size, the fact that there is
transliteration for the script at least at the beginning. I
worked through the book during one summer. But the texts, again,
are kitsch, macho, not funny at all.
I prefer the serie „Teach yourself ... Arabic“, more modern,
good print, better vocabulary, less grammar.
There must be one for Farsi. The whole serie was translated to
French, an excellent job.
#Post#: 17001--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning Persian - resources and progress (or lack thereof)
By: Irena Date: June 20, 2019, 12:24 pm
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And I'm slowly making my way through my Czech book. It's about a
trip to Holland, and I'm having lots of ups and downs. Some
paragraphs go smoothly, while others are highly descriptive,
with semi-technical vocabulary thrown in. :-[ It's a short book
(only about 50 pages, with lots of pictures), and I'm about half
way through. It occurred to me that might be a good idea to try
reading drama. That would, presumably, be more conversational
and easier to plough through.
Nikola, have you read Čapek's Matka? Is it any good? BTW,
the reason I keep reading Čapek is because I found his
complete works (in PDF) on the Internet:
HTML https://www.mlp.cz/cz/projekty/on-line-projekty/karel-capek/?knihovna=<br
/>
Very handy! 8)
#Post#: 17006--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning Persian - resources and progress (or lack thereof)
By: Nikola Date: June 20, 2019, 2:53 pm
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The discussion about Karel Čapek's books continues here:
HTML https://evengreener.createaforum.com/websites-and-resources/karel-268apek's-books-as-a-learning-resource-split-from-learning-persian
#Post#: 17009--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning Persian - resources and progress (or lack thereof)
By: Alharacas Date: June 20, 2019, 4:45 pm
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[quote author=Irena link=topic=1155.msg16978#msg16978
date=1560952787]
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1155.msg16977#msg16977
date=1560937806]
"Hey, we said we wanted to take people to B2 in the space of a
single book! [...]
[/quote]
Hmm... Obviously, you cannot get to B2 with just one single
book. Oh, sure, one book may cover enough grammar for B2 (and
even higher), but you aren't going to learn 5000 words from any
one book. (Well, maybe if it's a very long book.) And that's
roughly the vocabulary size that you need for B2, isn't it?
[/quote]
Interesting, Irena. I'm a bit embarrassed to say I have no idea
what size your vocabulary needs to be for a B2 - not in any
language, I mean. :-[
It just says on the cover "A1 - B2". After I'd read your post, I
had a quick look and there are about 1300 words in "Le Persan"
by ASSiMiL.
While trying to find out how to count words (do "go", "goes",
"going" and "went" count as 1 word or as 4?) and whether we're
talking active or passive vocabulary here, I found this:
HTML https://www.fluentu.com/blog/how-many-words-do-i-need-to-know/
According to the article, "go", goes", etc. count as 1 word, and
yes, we're talking active vocabulary (gah!).
Apart from that, I'm not much the wiser, because if you look at
their idea of levels, things get really confusing:
After "Functional Beginner (250 - 500 words)", you get
"Conversational: 1,000-3,000 words." Then there's "Advanced:
4,000-10,000 words. [...] you’re moving beyond the words that
make up everyday conversation and into specialized vocabulary
for talking about your professional field, news and current
events, opinions and more complex, abstract verbal feats. At
this point, you should be able to reach C2 level in the Common
European Framework for Reference (CEFR) in most languages."
Er. C2? Is that a typo? It must be, don't you think? Because the
list continues with "Fluent: 10,000+ words. At around 10,000
words in many languages, you’ve reached a near-native level of
vocabulary, with the requisite words for talking about nearly
any topic in detail. Furthermore, you recognize enough words in
every utterance that you usually understand the unfamiliar ones
from context." and then goes even further with "Native:
10,000-30,000+ words. Total word counts vary widely between
world languages, making it difficult to say how many words
native speakers know in general. As we discussed above,
estimates of how many words are known by the average native
English speaker vary from 10,000 to 65,000+."
#Post#: 17011--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning Persian - resources and progress (or lack thereof)
By: Irena Date: June 21, 2019, 1:17 am
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@Alharacas
Well, according to the official TRKI materials (TRKI are the
certifying Russian exams), this is the "lexical minimum" per
level:
A1 - 780
A2 - 1300
B1 - 2300
B2 - 5100
C1 - 9000
They say there is no lexical minimum for C2 because at this
level, the foreigner (yes, that's the word they use) should have
a level comparable to that of a well-educated Russian native
speaker.
And they actually give you a specific list of words you need to
know for each level. (Well, sort of. They still haven't made a
list for C1, which is my level. That is, I got a C1 level
certificate in Russian last summer.) So, it's not just that for
B2 you need to know some 5100 words; you are expected to know
their 5100 words.
Anyway, I've seen similar estimates for other languages as well
(though not as officially). And yes, something like
go/goes/going/went/gone counts as one word.
#Post#: 17273--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning Persian - resources and progress (or lack thereof)
By: Alharacas Date: June 28, 2019, 6:18 pm
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Over the past few days, I tried to revise colours and numbers,
also tried to learn a few new words, using
HTML http://www.digitaldialects.com/Farsi.htm
I wish they'd thought to add a randomizer. As it is, I now know
the exact order in which the fruit and vegetables disappear from
the bowl - the onion is 5th, the pumpkin is the one before last,
but don't ask me to come up with the Persian word for either.
Sigh.
What's interesting is that while a tomato is
گوجه‌فرنگ&
#1740;
(goje farangi), i.e. a foreign plum, and a strawberry is
توت‌فرنگی
(tut farangi), i.e. a foreign mulberry, a pumpkin is not a
foreign something or other, but simplyکدو,
kadu, which translates to, er, "pumpkin".
I wonder why German has the exact same word for "pineapple" as
Persian, Ananas, آناناس.
Another fairly nice one is "sib zamini",
سیب‌زمینی,
literally "earth apple", i.e. potato. Is it my imagination, do
you think, or is "zamin(i)" somehow connected to the Polish word
for earth, ziemia?
The other vocabulary games delighted me by providing the Persian
words for "axe", "hammer" and "sword". I'm sure those will come
in handy once I start reading the Persian Asterix I so rashly
bought.
#Post#: 17405--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning Persian - resources and progress (or lack thereof)
By: Alharacas Date: July 3, 2019, 5:24 am
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Taking a small break from learning vocabulary with quizlet.com
Not ideal, as I keep wondering what the transliterated word
"mad" (written in very larg letters) is supposed to mean, until
I check the tiny Persian script and see that it's actually
"amad", i.e. he/she/it came.
What I like is that it's a deck of about 300 words, many of
which I already know (but revising can't hurt), so I have a
chance of actually learning a few more.
A surprisingly large number of nouns are not that hard to
remember (umbrella - چتر chatr - sounds a bit
like German Schatten/shadow; gold - tala طلا -
sounds rather like the German Taler, etymological source of the
Dollar).
The verbs are worst, as ever.
#Post#: 17406--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning Persian - resources and progress (or lack thereof)
By: Alharacas Date: July 3, 2019, 7:31 am
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The word I most hate to hear in language learning is "or". As in
"How do I say this in my target language?" and getting the
answer "Ah, that would be X. Or, you could say Y." Invariably
resulting in me being unable to remember either (let alone
both).
Now, there is a huge field of sunflowers in full bloom outside
my window. And since I'm looking forward to today's
Persian-German language exchange, I looked up the word for
"sunflower". According to Langenscheidt, it's "gol-e aftab
gardan", گل آفتاب
گردان, which literally translates,
weirdly, to "flower-of sun batallion". Military apart, "gol" is
flower and "aftab" is sun. So, 2 or 3 words for the price of
one. Brilliant. Except I've just been asked to learn a different
word for "sun" by Quizlet:
خورشید, khorsheed.
I can see how that's going to be the biggest stumbling block in
learning Persian: there are 2 words for even the most common
things, one authentically Persian, the other of Arab origin -
both in use. Yikes.
Edit: Asked my language partner about the "gardan" part of
Persian sunflowers. She made a turning motion with her open
hand, so it's actually "flower-of sun turning" which makes a lot
more sense. This is why I've always disliked Langenscheidt.
Sigh.
#Post#: 17414--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning Persian - resources and progress (or lack thereof)
By: Alharacas Date: July 4, 2019, 1:43 am
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The other day, Lovely Language Partner commented "You know, you
really do have a talent for learning languages, just like you
said".
- "WHAT?? When did I ever say that?"
- "Well, you said you had a knack for learning pronunciation,
so..."
- "Er. What I actually said was 'So far, when trying to learn
another language, the only thing I used to have few problems
with was pronunciation. But with Persian, even that is difficult
for me.'"
What's even more difficult than remembering vowels - "Now, was
that a short, closed A tending towards the German Ä, or was it
more of an O going towards U?" - is intonation. When trying to
ask a question in Persian, I feel as if I'm learning Chinese.
Not lifting your voice at the end of a question, but instead
lifting it in the middle and then dropping it again at the end -
that's... that's... §$@%&!!
Which is why I've started watching Persian films and TV series,
with English subtitles, of course, not even trying to understand
anything, just to get my inner parrot going.
There are surprisingly few of those around, by the way. On
youtube, things tend to be either Persian only, or they've been
dubbed.
Some of those I've found (or been given links to) so far:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwjzztIFHWI
Movie called "A Separation". Do not watch unless Kafka is your
favourite author ever. Utterly nightmarish story about a guy
working full-time while trying to care for his teenage daughter
(doesn't want to hand her to the mother who's planning to
emigrate, preferably with daughter and husband) and his father
who's got Alzheimer's. Gets in a pregnant woman who shoos father
into bathroom to wash and change himself. As he proves incapable
of doing that, she calls some authority to ask whether it would
be a sin if she changed his trousers. Weird. Later, carer ties
her charge to the bed and leaves. Son returns, finds father
almost dead, has fight with carer which results in a
miscarriage. Guy accused of murder. WTF? Carer's choleric,
debt-ridden, drug-abusing husband stalks guy's family. Yes, it's
won an Oscar, but this is where I stopped watching because I
couldn't bear it any longer.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuzUAxBdxpE
Persian only. This was the result of me looking for a comedy.
Er. Even without understanding anything, it did not look funny
to me. Turns out it's supposed to be modelled on Dante's Divine
Comedy, i.e. not amusing at all.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eah31G6kRI
TV-series about smuggling drugs, of the kind sold in pharmacies,
though. Having a really hard time following the story line, in
spite of subtitles, mainly because I can't tell the actors
apart. Actresses are fine, male actors seem to come in two
versions, w/beard or w/stubbles.
Tried to watch a comedy series about people in an office. Could
not stand the boss's falsetto voice.
Am now watching a comedy series about the misfortunes of a
psychologist (internet degree from African online university)
out of sheer desperation. Not very funny, either, but at least
nobody's piercing my eardrums.
HTML https://www.aparat.com/v/GgS70
Both series remind me of really cheap sit-coms from the late
70s, early 80s. Minus the canned laughter, fortunately.
So far, the only interesting thing I've learnt from watching all
of the above is that there seems to be a lot of very pronounced
class consciousness/conflict in Iran.
As to pronunciation/intonation, the actors speak so fast, I'd
need a slow-motion option to catch anything of either. "Just
like the Germans", Lovely Language Partner commented.
#Post#: 17415--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning Persian - resources and progress (or lack thereof)
By: Aliph Date: July 4, 2019, 3:42 am
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My current Spanish teacher who’s Argentinian and married with an
American English teacher and is herself an English teacher told
me that pronunciation is only a part of the problem in any
language. She insists a lot on INTONATION. Of course for Spanish
(with an Argentinian teacher) we have a similar intonation.
Farsi has a very very particular intonation, going up and down.
I remember Sepideh’s recordings with a poem. Farsi to me sounds
really girlish even when two men speak it. I happen to regularly
hear the discussions of two middle aged gentlemen of Iranian
origin who have a nice virile deep voice, I am always astonished
to listen to them. To me it’s like their speaking doesn’t match
their looks.
I checked the trailer of the villains in the TV series of your
link. To my ear they do not sound scary. Almost a Californian
Valley girl accent.
I think that for me it would be utterly difficult to speak Farsi
or Dari, even if there are a lot of cognates with Arabic and it
is an indo-european language supposed to be easier than a
Semitic one.
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