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#Post#: 16827--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: Irena Date: June 13, 2019, 1:43 pm
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[quote author=NealC link=topic=1153.msg16826#msg16826
date=1560451208]
It really is almost swallowed. The best you would get before
violinist is sheza or shes uh but it really would be hard to
pick it out. Especially here in NY, where we do talk fast.
[/quote]
Right. But you wouldn't get that in front of violent, right?
Just shes violent. No uh.
#Post#: 16833--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: NealC Date: June 13, 2019, 6:21 pm
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You are correct there, not even a swallowed sound before
violent.
I think Jerry hit the nail on the head, it is only going to
matter to people making a statement about their identity.
I can't back it up with rules, but for me it would be natural
for me to say he's vegan, he's a vegetarian, he's gay.
#Post#: 16834--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: SHL Date: June 13, 2019, 6:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Don‘t trust New Yorkers (because they can be naturally rude) or
Hoosiers (Indianans, such as Jerry)- just kidding folks. Trust a
Californian! (We speak the best English in the country you know-
I don’t know what those other people are speaking outside this
State.... :)) )
Anyway, here‘s my take on it. You can say „I‘m a
vegan/vegetarian“ and that’s fine. Native speakers say that all
the time. They say, probably equally, „I‘m vegan/vegetarian“,
and where I live no one pays a bit of attention to the
difference. Is there a technical rule on it? I have no idea, but
to me the „a“ in either case is just optional. I suppose you
might try to split hairs and make some kind of distinction, but
locally no one does. If I said I were vegan/a vegan no one would
bat an eye and the people I live around wouldn’t even notice the
slightest difference (maybe the locals are just dumb? I don’t
know).
As to gay, THAT is a whole different matter. The expression is
„I am gay/straight/trans/bi“ whatever. Now, having said that, I
have heard people say „He’s a gay you know!“ (with a look of
horror in their face). I‘ve never heard anyone say they were „a
straight“, just they are straight, but they would oddly enough
say „a heterosexual.“ Or you could say „a homosexual“ but that
sounds clinical and really old, like pre-1970s era. Now that I
think about it, that does seem inconsistent. Same goes for „a
bi“ or „a trans“. Never heard that said like that ever; but, I
have heard people, sort of derogatorily say someone is „a
trannie.“ So, is there a rule there? Yeah, some sort of rule,
but I really don‘t know what it is.
But, to call someone „a gay“ does carry a negative connotation
to it. Definitely and always. It sounds like someone out of the
1950s. Sort of like saying „he’s a pervert.“ That’s probably the
connection. During the period of gay liberation, especially in
San Francisco, it was always „to be gay“ or „he is gay“ or „she
is lesbian“, but oddly it was never derogatory to say „She is a
lesbian.“ Why? I have no idea. In fact, just saying „She is
lesbian“ sounds a little odd me. Not terribly so, but I wouldn’t
say that myself.
So, it‘s a really good question, and one that deserves a good
answer, but the answer is much more nuanced than one would
think. I’m just saying what sounds right to me. „Jill is a
lesbian and John, her brother is gay.“ Don‘t ever say „John is a
gay.“ That sounds like „John is a pervert“ or something and
needs electroshock treatments or something. Not cool.
Here‘s where Alharacas can help out. In German I learned that
when you were talking about, perhaps immutable characteristics
or identities, professions, you left out the „a“, or the ein,
the indefinite article. So „Er ist Berliner“ instead of like
JFKs famously embarrassing „Ich bin ein Berliner“, (a Berliner
is a jelly doughnut, which are my favorite actually- jelly
filled with lots of sugar on top). Or, „Er ist
Amerikaner/Deutscher“ that sort of thing. Religions,
nationalities, professions. „Sie ist Rechtsanwältin“ or „sie ist
Ärztin.“ With gay men anyway, German does generally the same-
„Er ist schwul.“
I‘m reading a really good book at the moment that was published
in 1978 by a US gay activist, Larry Kramer, translated into
German, called „Schwuchteln.“ Schwuchteln means „faggots“ in
German, which is the name of the original English book (It’s
actually an excellent book critical of the excesses of gay male
-rather extreme -sexual promiscuity in the late 70s in New York,
about 3 years before the HIV/AIDS epidemic broke). It‘s funny,
and thought-provoking and not homophobic in the least. Quite the
opposite. But, it was boycotted by gay people in NYC when it
first was published, even though it was 100% accurate in its
depictions of what was going on, and New York‘s only gay
bookstore in 1978 (Oscar Wilde books or something) banned it
from their shelves. The forward to the book describes it as
almost eerily prophetic of something really bad about to come,
which in fact did. I love the writer of the forward‘s remarks
(written on a re-publication in 2002), „When young, the body is
like a never-tiring workhorse. Throw all the abuse at it you
like, and it just keeps bouncing back. BUT, it neither forgives,
nor forgets that abuse.“ Great quote. And, so true.
My hunch is one would say „Er ist eine Schwuchtel“ (die Tunte is
another word for it, which is like queen or pansy, or die Tucke)
and I think you would use the eine there too in German (to say
Er ist Schwuchtel just sounds off to me). „Er ist eine Tunte.“
Schwuchtel, Tunte, Tucke all carry the feeling that the person
is effeminate, whereas schwul, to my knowledge, doesn’t.
I don't know why exactly, but it just sounds weird to me to
leave out the indefinite article with Schwuchtel, Tunte, or
Tucke. With German I rely a lot on instinct, like in English,
but Alharacas is the expert here.
Also, I learned there is an exception when dropping the
indefinite article, ein/eine where an adjective is between the
indefinite article and the noun. When that is the case you have
to use the indefinite article. So, „Er ist ein gesunder
Deutscher“. That exception I recall from 40 years ago. And, you
have to do that too in English- „he’s a healthy German.“ But,
with English, „He’s a nice gay“ just doesn’t work either. It
just sounds weird (sounds like it’s off Google-Translate or off
of WOW air’s Icelandic to English translations inside their
planes from last year). You can say „he’s a gay person“ and
that’s okay, or a „nice gay person“. But, for some reason, you
need the „person“ part in there, otherwise it sounds VERY
derogatory to my ear.
#Post#: 16837--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: Irena Date: June 13, 2019, 11:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=NealC link=topic=1153.msg16833#msg16833
date=1560468101]
I can't back it up with rules, but for me it would be natural
for me to say he's vegan, he's a vegetarian, he's gay.
[/quote]
Ha! That's just what I was thinking. Vegan, a vegetarian, gay.
Indefinite article in front of vegetarian, but not in front of
the other two. I have no sensible explanation for this. I
thought that maybe my non-native intuition was playing tricks on
me. ;)
#Post#: 16840--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: Nikola Date: June 14, 2019, 3:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Irena link=topic=1153.msg16837#msg16837
date=1560487978]
[quote author=NealC link=topic=1153.msg16833#msg16833
date=1560468101]
I can't back it up with rules, but for me it would be natural
for me to say he's vegan, he's a vegetarian, he's gay.
[/quote]
Ha! That's just what I was thinking. Vegan, a vegetarian, gay.
Indefinite article in front of vegetarian, but not in front of
the other two. I have no sensible explanation for this. I
thought that maybe my non-native intuition was playing tricks on
me. ;)
[/quote]
Your non-native intuition is in agreement with my non-native
intuition, although I have been torn between "vegetarian" and "a
vegetarian" at times but that was probably because I wouldn't
say "a vegan" and I assumed they had to follow the same pattern.
It's very strange indeed. Could it be because a vegetarian is
less likely to be mocked for who they are? Just a thought.
#Post#: 16843--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: Irena Date: June 14, 2019, 3:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Nikola link=topic=1153.msg16840#msg16840
date=1560499854]
[quote author=Irena link=topic=1153.msg16837#msg16837
date=1560487978]
[quote author=NealC link=topic=1153.msg16833#msg16833
date=1560468101]
I can't back it up with rules, but for me it would be natural
for me to say he's vegan, he's a vegetarian, he's gay.
[/quote]
Ha! That's just what I was thinking. Vegan, a vegetarian, gay.
Indefinite article in front of vegetarian, but not in front of
the other two. I have no sensible explanation for this. I
thought that maybe my non-native intuition was playing tricks on
me. ;)
[/quote]
Your non-native intuition is in agreement with my non-native
intuition, although I have been torn between "vegetarian" and "a
vegetarian" at times but that was probably because I wouldn't
say "a vegan" and I assumed they had to follow the same pattern.
It's very strange indeed. Could it be because a vegetarian is
less likely to be mocked for who they are? Just a thought.
[/quote]
Mmm... Maybe... My hunch was that it was simply because
vegetarian is a longer word than vegan. But maybe I'm totally
off. ???
ETA: Another possibility is that it's because vegetarian ends
with -ian. It's a little bit strange to use -ian words as
adjectives (not impossible; just a bit unusual). Does that sound
plausible?
#Post#: 16847--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: SHL Date: June 14, 2019, 5:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Irena link=topic=1153.msg16837#msg16837
date=1560487978]
[quote author=NealC link=topic=1153.msg16833#msg16833
date=1560468101]
I can't back it up with rules, but for me it would be natural
for me to say he's vegan, he's a vegetarian, he's gay.
[/quote]
Ha! That's just what I was thinking. Vegan, a vegetarian, gay.
Indefinite article in front of vegetarian, but not in front of
the other two. I have no sensible explanation for this. I
thought that maybe my non-native intuition was playing tricks on
me. ;)
[/quote]
Yeah, but I’ve heard a lot of native speakers say „he’s
vegetarian“ too. That sounds fine to me too. Just like saying
„he’s a vegan.“ You just can’t say someone is „a gay“ but you
could say „a gay person“ or „she’s a lesbian.“ I’d say with
vegan and vegetarian the indefinite article is optional. There’s
no rule on it either way.
#Post#: 16851--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: Nikola Date: June 14, 2019, 7:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
California, I'd like to thank you for the extensive analysis you
provided last night. That's what I call a proper comment (never
mind half of it was about German) ;D
It's good to know that both a vegan/a vegetarian sound as
natural to you as vegan/vegetarian. From what I've read, I think
that the rule would be that unless you're a meatless dish,
you're not vegetarian, you're a vegetarian (a person who doesn't
eat meat) but the rule doesn't seem to matter, since people seem
to really like using it as an adjective regardless.
What you're saying about gay vs a gay corresponds with what
people say in the wordreference discussion we talked about
earlier. I didn't know "a gay" was derogatory when I wrote my
post. I thought it was just un-natural, maybe. When you say "a
homosexual", it really stands out, though. It reminds me of Dr
Larch from John Irving's The Cider House Rules. He's accused of
being "a nonpracticing homosexual".
Oh, and this made me laugh:
[quote author=SHL link=topic=1153.msg16834#msg16834
date=1560468792]
In German I learned that when you were talking about, perhaps
immutable characteristics or identities, professions, you left
out the „a“, or the ein, the indefinite article. So „Er ist
Berliner“ instead of like JFKs famously embarrassing „Ich bin
ein Berliner“, (a Berliner is a jelly doughnut, which are my
favorite actually- jelly filled with lots of sugar on top).
[/quote]
#Post#: 16926--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: Nikola Date: June 16, 2019, 10:17 am
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Further comments about JFK's speech have been moved to
HTML https://evengreener.createaforum.com/questions/jfk-'ich-bin-ein-berliner'-split-from-vegetarian-vegan-gay/
If you wish to discuss loanwords, head this way
HTML https://evengreener.createaforum.com/questions/loanwords-split-from-vegetarian-vegan-gay
#Post#: 16928--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
By: SHL Date: June 16, 2019, 10:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Alharacas link=topic=1153.msg16921#msg16921
date=1560687751]
[quote author=SHL link=topic=1153.msg16913#msg16913
date=1560637737]
And, although it’s just my personal observation, Germans sort of
like English, or at least English words, for some odd reason. I
never understood that. So, I think that means they readily adopt
English words like “sorry” when there really is no reason for
it.
But, English is not like that. While there are a few German
words English has adopted, they pale in comparison to the number
of English words German has taken on.
So, if the French are still wishing to keep their language
“pure”, and they may have given up on it, the Germans seem to
never have had that sentiment.
[/quote]
This would merit a thread of its own, I think. Feel free to
split, Nikola. :)
Steven, in case you're not aware of this: what Germans used to
say instead of "Sorry" was neither Entschuldigung nor
Verzeihung, but, er, [i]Pardon[/i]. Pronounced with a French
nasal at the end. As my mother still does. ;)
Actually, German's had perhaps more than its fair share of
purges. Without checking, I can think of at least two or three.
The first one came quite early on, in the 16th or 17th century,
when they tried to get rid of Latin loanwords. Until then, if I
remember correctly, the German word for "surface" was
"Superficies", which was replaced by "Oberfläche". A couple of
hundred years later, it was about eliminating the arch-enemy,
French.
And I'm sure everybody will be able to guess when last act of
"purification" took place, non-specific, but actually also
mostly about French. That's when we got Bahnsteig instead of
"Perron" (platform) and Gehweg instead of "Trottoir" (sidewalk).
People did accept these newly minted German words (mainly
because everybody employed in any sort of official capacity was
obliged to use them, I suspect), but I don't think any normal
person felt they were a real improvement.
Mixed into those purges were almost continuous efforts to at
least "Germanize" orthography, wherever particularly obstinate
loanwords simply refused to leave the language. Thus, we write
Perücke instead of perruque and Zentrum instead of "Centrum". As
it's only been about 20 years since the last concerted effort of
this kind was made (Friseur -> Frisör; Delphin -> Delfin), I'm
confidently looking forward to seeing delightful little monsters
like "gugeln" and "Softwär" appear - all in good time. ;D
What about Serbian, Czech, Japanese, Swiss German, or Georgian,
for example?
[/quote]
Thank you Alharacas for your informative post. I always love
hearing you inform us about German etymology, and the German
language in general. Some here might have noticed my fondness
for the German language (I’m not sure Neal and Jerry have quite
noticed this yet....... but, it is a distinct possibility
however 8) )
Pardon ist flagged as veraltend by Duden and LEO as well, with
LEO’s Worthäufigkeit (word frequency for anyone else reading
this except Nikola and Sofia) at 3 out of 7, and the
Wortverlaufskurve (sort of the curve showing its use) only at
2.2 in 1960 and a 1.1 in 2019. (To compare a really common word
like das Beispiel, Beispiel comes in on LEO’s Worthäufigkeit 5
out of 7, and a Wortverlaufskurve of 300 (Frequenz) in 1960 and
Frequenz of 280 today.)
One of my favorite expressions was zum Exempel, but
unfortunately it’s also considered veraltend like Pardon. My
former German professor from Hamburg used to say it all the
time, but she was born in 1921 and died this January at 97. Now
that’s a perfectly nice word and could be a nice little
alternative to zum Beispiel so why does it have to go and we get
Airport an hi instead, like we need Airport? We really need hi?
What????
Zum Exempel appears in Franz Carl Weiskopf’s Abschied von
Frieden, published in 1950 and is flagged as veraltend in LEO,
and quoted “es kommt nicht leicht was Besseres nach. Zum
Exempel.....wenn der Erzherzog-Thronfolger Franz Ferdinand
Kaiser wird” (Weiskopf, Abschied v. Frieden, 1,383)
Exempel appears to have a Latin origin, but it still faded.
Exempel still can be used in other constructions so it’s doing a
bit better than Pardon with a Worthäufigkeit of 4 on a scale of
1-7 it a declining Wortverlaufskurve of a high in around 1965 of
4 and now a 2 in 2019 (that word is also flagged as
Bildungssprachlich as many of my former professor’s German words
were she used.)
My other German professor told us to never use the word
“Charterflug” in the 70s, that it wasn’t a German word and no
one would understand it (we didn’t believe him- he was a German
language purist, and only wanted us to read Goethe and listen to
Wagner and not read “degenerate” modern German writers like
Thomas Mann or Günter Grass) , it was just an example of German
“word-aping” as he called it and to say “Pachtflug” instead (I
think he made that word up, but it wasn’t a bad attempt since a
Pacht as you know is a lease of something).
As to the French words being purged, they never purged das
Pissoir, although it’s flagged as veraltend too and has a use
frequency now in LEO as a 0.3 and a 0.0 prior to 1950. But, I’ve
seen it on roadside stops in Northern Germany. I always thought
it was kind of cute. Reminds me in English of calling a urinal a
“pisser” :D
French has got some crazy false cognates too. Like I’
avertissement. Sounds like an advertisement, instead of a
warning. Sort of like saying, “a bit of an advertisement here
folks, but if you touch this high voltage wire you could die.
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