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#Post#: 15233--------------------------------------------------
Re: National IQ - SPLIT FROM Why do we say Holocaust much more t
han other terrible genocide?
By: Forest Date: May 9, 2019, 1:11 am
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The claims about “superior intelligence” of specific races can
be dangerous, because it has been used as a basisof racism,
social discriminations and eugenics: a basis to rationalize
various discrimination.
In the case of the Nazi regime of German eugenics, the first
thing to do is to oppress patients, the physically and mentally
challenged, and then to slaughter people with disabilities,
sexual minorities and Jews. In western society, eugenics
combined with racism and influenced the prejudice against the
socially weak. What is the purpose to mention Jews I
intelligence now? As for IQ, there are some ethnics as high as
Jews or maybe higher than them, I think. High IQ is not the
cause for them to be successful. So this kind of discussion
seems unnecessary.
#Post#: 15234--------------------------------------------------
Re: National IQ - SPLIT FROM Why do we say Holocaust much more t
han other terrible genocide?
By: Forest Date: May 9, 2019, 1:12 am
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Here is a fun article, if you cling to IQ stuff: list of 25
Countries With The Highest Average IQ.
HTML https://list25.com/25-countries-with-the-highest-average-iq/
#Post#: 15235--------------------------------------------------
Re: National IQ - SPLIT FROM Why do we say Holocaust much more t
han other terrible genocide?
By: Irena Date: May 9, 2019, 2:55 am
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[quote author=Nikola link=topic=1028.msg15229#msg15229
date=1557355018]
Wow, that's very interesting, Irena. It explains quite clearly
that IQ doesn't seem to be genetically determined, since even
the guys who used to think so (Lynn and Vanhanen), ended up
disproving their own theory. So that explains the difference
between American and Israeli Jews but doesn't it, at the same
time, imply that American Jews should score about the same as
the rest of the US (and not higher like they do)? Surely, if it
depends on the geographical area (as in country or its part) and
how well it's doing economically at the time, there shouldn't be
any difference between these two groups, don't you think?
[/quote]
Countries are not homogeneous. All sorts of things influence IQ.
It's partly genetic, but it also depends on, for instance, the
level of literacy, level of urbanization, disease burden,
nutrition... American Jews are a hyper-literarate, hyper-urban
population, which contributes to their high IQ scores. That
said, it's perfectly possible that there's also a genetic
component to the high Jewish IQ scores. But if so, it's amost
certainly small, and nowhere close to the 10-15 IQ point gap
between average American IQ and average Jewish American IQ,
which is what is currently observed.
#Post#: 15236--------------------------------------------------
Re: National IQ - SPLIT FROM Why do we say Holocaust much more t
han other terrible genocide?
By: NealC Date: May 9, 2019, 3:20 am
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It is a very interesting article. I just find it hard to
believe that IQ, which I always took to be genetic, can be
changed by economic circumstances.
More to put in my head and mull over.
#Post#: 15237--------------------------------------------------
Re: National IQ - SPLIT FROM Why do we say Holocaust much more t
han other terrible genocide?
By: Irena Date: May 9, 2019, 3:46 am
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[quote author=NealC link=topic=1028.msg15236#msg15236
date=1557390051]
It is a very interesting article. I just find it hard to
believe that IQ, which I always took to be genetic, can be
changed by economic circumstances.
More to put in my head and mull over.
[/quote]
Glad you liked the article. :)
Worldwide IQ scores have massively increased over the past
century or so. That's knows as the Flynn effect. (Of course,
they recalibrate the scale so that 100 remains average, but the
point is that IQ 100 in 1990 is completely different - and much
higher than - IQ 100 in 1940.) That cannot possibly be generic.
IQ is indeed quite highly heritable, but heritability is about
variance, which is about distance from the mean. But that mean
can change quite significantly from one generation to the next
for environmental reasons. Basically, if Anne and Bob have high
IQ relative to people who grew up under similar conditions, then
their kids, Caley and Dan, are likely to have high IQ relative
to people who grew up under conditions similar to the ones that
C+D grew up under. (Oh, and then there's regression to the mean.
Separate story.) However, if the conditions that A+B grew up
under were significantly different from the ones that C+D grew
up under, then there could be quite a big gap between A+B's IQ
on the one hand and C+D's IQ on the other (assuming you use the
same scale, rather than a recalibrated one).
It works the same way for height, for instance. Most of today's
"short" people would be considered fairly tall by 19th centry
standards. But if those short people had grown up under 19th
century conditions, they would have been far shorter than they
actually are.
#Post#: 15238--------------------------------------------------
Re: National IQ - SPLIT FROM Why do we say Holocaust much more t
han other terrible genocide?
By: Nikola Date: May 9, 2019, 3:59 am
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[quote author=NealC link=topic=1028.msg15232#msg15232
date=1557369955]
Countries that have a lot of immigration can sometimes have
skewed results on IQ tests as their sample populations are not
normal or average. I think it is freedom and economic
opportunity that attract higher IQ immigrants.
I will check the article out.
[/quote]
I was thinking the same but the article suggests otherwise.
Apparently, there doesn't seem to be a correlation between
higher IQ and the decision to seek economic opportunity
elsewhere, and even if there were, due to regression to the
mean, people with unusually high IQ don't tend to have kids with
equally high IQ so it would even itself out after some time.
Ah, OK, you've read it now. Also, Irena has addressed this
already. I type so slowly :)
[quote author=Irena link=topic=1028.msg15235#msg15235
date=1557388523]
Countries are not homogeneous. All sorts of things influence IQ.
It's partly genetic, but it also depends on, for instance, the
level of literacy, level of urbanization, disease burden,
nutrition... American Jews are a hyper-literarate, hyper-urban
population, which contributes to their high IQ scores. That
said, it's perfectly possible that there's also a genetic
component to the high Jewish IQ scores. But if so, it's amost
certainly small, and nowhere close to the 10-15 IQ point gap
between average American IQ and average Jewish American IQ,
which is what is currently observed.
[/quote]
Yeah, the gap is real and a bit of a mystery. It also makes you
wonder again (as we did a while ago) what it is the IQ actually
represents. Seeing as it is higher in areas that are more
developed and goes hand in hand with success and wealth, it
could well be the ability to succeed and become rich in
countries where such thing is possible (as opposed to another
type of intelligence that helps you, for example, survive under
an authoritarian regime). Another thing I'm wondering about is
how this "ability to succeed" is more developed in areas where
it is possible to succeed. It reminds me of the video about the
Brown eyes, blue eyes experiment Susan posted. The children's
performance went straight down when they were in the group that
wasn't expected to do well. On the other hand, when they
believed they were the better of the two groups, they did really
well. It wouldn't surprise me if their individual IQ scores
differed, had they taken the test on the two consecutive days.
What I'm thinking is, could the fact that you see other people
like you succeed and the strong belief that you, too, can
succeed, give your IQ a little boost?
Either way, even if we don't know exactly why, there's evidence
that the American Jews' IQ is higher than the average IQ in the
US, which provides a much more logical explanation as to why
many of them are so successful, than any conspiracy theory could
offer, in my opinion (ruthlessly applying Occam's razor here).
Another reason I like this explanation is that it is based on
actual research and not on negative feelings towards a certain
group or assumptions based on those feelings. History is full of
evidence that such approach can have tragic consequences.
#Post#: 15239--------------------------------------------------
Re: National IQ - SPLIT FROM Why do we say Holocaust much more t
han other terrible genocide?
By: NealC Date: May 9, 2019, 4:01 am
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You're expanding IQ into the same sort of heredity/environment
duality as things like height? I think you might be breaking my
brain.
The conclusion then is rising prosperity will bring about rises
in intelligence. But shouldn't we have seen evidence of that in
the data, esp in different IQ scores between the US and the
countries completely shattered by war in the generation after
WWII?
#Post#: 15240--------------------------------------------------
Re: National IQ - SPLIT FROM Why do we say Holocaust much more t
han other terrible genocide?
By: Irena Date: May 9, 2019, 4:05 am
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[quote author=Nikola link=topic=1028.msg15238#msg15238
date=1557392371]
Either way, even if we don't know exactly why, there's evidence
that the American Jews' IQ is higher than the average IQ in the
US which provides a much more logical explanation as to why many
of them are so successful, than any conspiracy theory could
offer, in my opinion (ruthlessly applying Occam's razor here).
[/quote]
Of course. Just as being tall will help you in basketball,
whether your height is a result of "tall genes," better
nutrition, or anything else.
#Post#: 15241--------------------------------------------------
Re: National IQ - SPLIT FROM Why do we say Holocaust much more t
han other terrible genocide?
By: NealC Date: May 9, 2019, 4:15 am
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There are other variations in US IQ scores that are best
explained by immigration of the smartest, asian scores tend to
be higher here as well.
I completely reject the contemporary 'evidence' of onlookers
decrying the low intelligence of immigrants. That is just
simple human prejudice against "furriners"
#Post#: 15242--------------------------------------------------
Re: National IQ - SPLIT FROM Why do we say Holocaust much more t
han other terrible genocide?
By: Irena Date: May 9, 2019, 4:16 am
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[quote author=NealC link=topic=1028.msg15239#msg15239
date=1557392503]
You're expanding IQ into the same sort of heredity/environment
duality as things like height? I think you might be breaking my
brain.
The conclusion then is rising prosperity will bring about rises
in intelligence. But shouldn't we have seen evidence of that in
the data, esp in different IQ scores between the US and the
countries completely shattered by war in the generation after
WWII?
[/quote]
About IQ & height: well, yes. Why not?
As for WWII: many European countries recovered surprisingly fast
(due to the Marshall Plan in large part). Still, I do suspect
that, if you'd done a study circa 1946, there would have been
quite a noticeable gap between the IQ of white American children
(black clidren faced appalling discrimination at the time) and
European children. I don't think such studies were done,
though...
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