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#Post#: 15091--------------------------------------------------
„Not one inch to the East“- how Reagan and the US lied to Gorboc
hov
By: SHL Date: May 5, 2019, 2:37 pm
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Another example of how the US and Reagan lied and tricked
Gorbochov
HTML https://youtu.be/NvAAwiyxJMw
#Post#: 15093--------------------------------------------------
Re: „Not one inch to the East“- how Reagan and the US lied to Go
rbochov
By: Irena Date: May 5, 2019, 3:06 pm
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There's nothing surprising about the fact that they lied. That's
what politicians/diplomats do. Duh. The shocking thing is that
Gorbachov believed the lie.
#Post#: 15094--------------------------------------------------
Re: „Not one inch to the East“- how Reagan and the US lied to Go
rbochov
By: SHL Date: May 5, 2019, 3:41 pm
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[quote author=Irena link=topic=1025.msg15093#msg15093
date=1557086814]
There's nothing surprising about the fact that they lied. That's
what politicians/diplomats do. Duh. The shocking thing is that
Gorbachov believed the lie.
[/quote]
It is Irena. That‘s what makes the story interesting. It was a
verbal agreement only, nothing in writing. So, the whole promise
was just a joke.
Of course, maybe Gorbachov knew it all along, and didn’t believe
it, and didn’t care, but had to act like he did just to not be
blamed later for not securing the promise? That way he could
always say you can‘t trust the West?
#Post#: 15101--------------------------------------------------
Re: „Not one inch to the East“- how Reagan and the US lied to Go
rbochov
By: NealC Date: May 5, 2019, 4:49 pm
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How old is this speech?
These charges could possibly be levelled during the Bush or
Obama years but they certainly are exposed as false under Trump.
NATO has become more and more European, to the point now that
it really could be supplanted by an EU military.
As for the "lie", I would say the reverse is true. In diplomacy
you only accept a gentleman's agreement because you are too weak
to insist on something stronger. Re-uniting Germany was the
right thing to do, and if Russia wasn't such a turbulent bully
perhaps her neighbors would not feel the need to join a
defensive alliance.
You don't see a NATO style alliance pitted against Canada or
Italy.
#Post#: 15102--------------------------------------------------
Re: „Not one inch to the East“- how Reagan and the US lied to Go
rbochov
By: Irena Date: May 5, 2019, 4:56 pm
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[quote author=SHL link=topic=1025.msg15094#msg15094
date=1557088881]
[quote author=Irena link=topic=1025.msg15093#msg15093
date=1557086814]
There's nothing surprising about the fact that they lied. That's
what politicians/diplomats do. Duh. The shocking thing is that
Gorbachov believed the lie.
[/quote]
It is Irena. That‘s what makes the story interesting. It was a
verbal agreement only, nothing in writing. So, the whole promise
was just a joke.
Of course, maybe Gorbachov knew it all along, and didn’t believe
it, and didn’t care, but had to act like he did just to not be
blamed later for not securing the promise? That way he could
always say you can‘t trust the West?
[/quote]
If he truly believed it, then he was an idiot, pure and simple.
Possibly, he felt he couldn't do anything about it, so he
acquiesced, knowing full well that Reagan &co were laughing
behind his back. I suppose it's also possible they gave him a
handsome bribe. Or he was simply a complete moron, which is
possible. Who knows?
#Post#: 15104--------------------------------------------------
Re: „Not one inch to the East“- how Reagan and the US lied to Go
rbochov
By: SHL Date: May 5, 2019, 5:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=NealC link=topic=1025.msg15101#msg15101
date=1557092943]
How old is this speech?
These charges could possibly be levelled during the Bush or
Obama years but they certainly are exposed as false under Trump.
NATO has become more and more European, to the point now that
it really could be supplanted by an EU military.
As for the "lie", I would say the reverse is true. In diplomacy
you only accept a gentleman's agreement because you are too weak
to insist on something stronger. Re-uniting Germany was the
right thing to do, and if Russia wasn't such a turbulent bully
perhaps her neighbors would not feel the need to join a
defensive alliance.
You don't see a NATO style alliance pitted against Canada or
Italy.
[/quote]
I think it raises an interesting question. Of course, I agree
reuniting Germany was the right thing to do. I was there in 1980
before reunification and lived only 30 miles from the border
fence around the Helmstedt area. The tension was always high.
But, my hunch is Gorbachev must not have been a total idiot and
believed this gentleman‘s agreement would be honored. I think he
knew NATO would be at his Russian doorstep in a heartbeat but
probably didn‘t care or see it as a threat but needed to say he
had a western promise, so he could defend himself with his
cronies later on, when the inevitable happened.
I was about to check, but to my knowledge a good number of NATO
bases closed, compared to the 1950s. Iceland‘s closed its base
in 2003. And I know many of Germany‘s closed too, but the US
keeps a few of them open because Germany is a good stop-over
location for the military transports coming back from the Middle
East, and probably also because US servicemen/women love being
stationed in Germany. It‘s like being sent on an extended
holiday for them. They get to live in these little US enclaves
with an air base, hospital, housing and everyone speaking
English, all over a small little area of a few square miles. I
haven‘t seen it written, but I suspect that‘s the second reason
for the US reluctance to close all its NATO bases and put the
money back into the economy to fund better healthcare and
provide higher eduction, which the US separately needs.
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