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Erie Canal Neighbors Association
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#Post#: 375--------------------------------------------------
Can I drain water from an easement into the canal?
DIR By: guest19
Date: March 25, 2019, 2:01 pm
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My back yard has a drainage easement, and there's a low point
across my property that collects water.
Question: Can I bury drainage tile and Tee into, routing the
collected water into the canal? Do I need a permit to do this?
Thanks!
Jeff
#Post#: 377--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can I drain water from an easement into the canal?
DIR By: Doug K
Date: March 25, 2019, 6:06 pm
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Jeff,
I understand your question to be if a permit is needed to put
run-off water into the Erie Canal, yes?
You will collect run-off from your property, in a central
location that is a natural recess, and pipe it underground,
exiting your property and draining directly into the Erie canal.
(I assume your pooling water sits above the Erie Canal water
level?)
Is the reason you need to do this because the water is
prohibited in some way of naturally running into the canal?
Sometimes it less expensive to fill in the recess and get water
running the direction you want naturally in the long run..
consider pipe clearing issues with critters making their home
inside etc. Just a suggestion but can also understand that cost
of screened topsoil and if the lowland is large adding dirt gets
expensive fast. It would be nice to have an address, we've
gotten really good with a NYS Dam Registry app and can see 3D
for most locations.
But back to the question of a drain running into the Erie Canal
directly... If that is the plan then we can get you in touch
with someone to come and take a look at what is needed.
Most of your path forward will depend if your property is on the
Erie Canal Trail (ECT) side or the "berm" side (as it's called)
of the Canal. If you are in need of going UNDER the ECT I have
seen that done by the Canal Corporation many times.. it will
need a work permit. If you are on the berm side, and your
property runs right up to the water's edge then I would think
you can manipulate the water in your own property as needed.
Here's a picture of what I did with a Canal Leak below the dam
in our backyard. My back is to the Erie Canal, the "pond" is
about 18' below the ECT
[attachimg=1]
If you want to discuss more send me a personal message... I can
also give you some ideas on piping, done about 300' of piping &
toe drain ditches to deal with the extra water we all get
"living below the Erie Canal dams".
I would advise against 4" pipe if you have standing water... it
will never allow the flow you want over time... that is a
calculated certainty.
#Post#: 387--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can I drain water from an easement into the canal?
DIR By: guest19
Date: March 28, 2019, 6:34 am
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Thanks for the thorough response, Doug. My address is 26 Packet
Boat.
--- Quote ---
> I understand your question to be if a permit is needed to put
run-off water into the Erie Canal, yes?
--- End Quote ---
Yep - you understand correctly.
--- Quote ---
> You will collect run-off from your property, in a central
location that is a natural recess, and pipe it underground,
exiting your property and draining directly into the Erie canal.
(I assume your pooling water sits above the Erie Canal water
level?)
--- End Quote ---
Also, yes. I included a picture of my back yard, looking towards
the canal, and you can see the low spot going left-to-right in
the picture.
--- Quote ---
> Is the reason you need to do this because the water is
prohibited in some way of naturally running into the canal?
--- End Quote ---
Yep. There's a trough that runs across my lawn that coincides
with the easement. And the bottom of that trough is above the
canal height.
My initial thought was to bury drainage tile in the trough, and
Tee it into a pipe that drains into the canal. Then cover the
tile with dirt to get everything up to level. The concerns you
raised do make sense, about critters and flow.
What are your thoughts after seeing the pic?
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 388--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can I drain water from an easement into the canal?
DIR By: Doug K
Date: March 28, 2019, 7:27 am
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Well the picture helps to frame thoughts and the first one is
about the land beyond your own... I'll give you some things to
think over
Look at your picture again... is all this right?
[attachimg=1]
Concern #1
If that shallow swale extends into your neighbors yards then I
would advise you NOT to add any topsoil to level it off.. you
may be blocking natural flow. I think the water mainly flows to
the left. That left side property looks just a little lower that
the right side one, is that true? Do either of your neighbors
have a similar issue with standing water or just your lot?
Concern #2
You are going to be working backwards from spot you plan to exit
the drain back to the swale where your "inlet" end will be. I
see two major root lines to cross over, and that will not be
easy to navigate. The job will need a small backhoe, on a
compact tractor to do it right. The idea is to maintain a drain
angle similar to pipes in your house, insuring you don't have
any place in the drains system that could collect water or ice
up in the winter.
Natural Aquifer..how it works
So let's talk about "groundwater", it's all part of the Aquifer
collection process. That water naturally dissipates through the
soil & rock as well as having run-off above ground. That water
you see already may be making it's way back into the canal. The
run-off must collect into a storm water system that flows
somewhere.
I would follow the swale at both ends to see if you can see
where the water goes after you yard. It could be another
"recess" somewhere that leads that water back to the canal
already. If not then this water must sit there for days in heavy
rain.
Most important question... Do you and your neighbors have a pond
across all your yards in a heavy rain?
If it's just your lot that gets a pond then you are on the right
track.. you "own" the low spot..and what you are planning will
work. If your neighbors ALSO have ponds then you may not be able
to fix the problem entirely by can reduce water by giving it a
"path of least resistance"..like your drain idea. I would
suggest 6" minimum diameter of plastic corrugated drain pipe,,
plan on at least half the pipe getting filled with sediment over
time.
Other Factors to Think About?
One thing to consider as well.. lawn chemicals... that might be
something to consider as well if you are redirecting normal
run-off from wherever it goes now to the new home in the Erie
Canal. It's not that this sorts of thing isn't happening today
in many places like yours with lawns that slope towards the
canal. Its more about the fact that yours will be a "pipe" where
water can be collected easily & tested. Just another thing to
consider when placing an open water drain into an existing
waterway or pond.
Jefferson,
I might be in Fairport in a couple weeks to look over more ECNA
work at the Oxbow Trail. If you'd like we could stop by and take
a closer look and give you some further ideas. I worked on a
drain issue like yours last year, the property owner had a pond
in his yard and his neighbors had lakes to one side of him and
an empty swale to the other. Someone had filled in the lot to
cure his water issues and stopped the whole flow. We laid 80' of
6" pipe.. double width, and put a French Drain to collect the
water at the high end. The project worked, no one in that
neighborhood has a lake anymore, about 5 homeowners were amazed
by the simple change.
I have found the BEST way to create a solution for standing
water is to take a good look at it when it''s full and see where
the water wants to go... and what is stopping it's path. Maybe
do some more analysis, when it rains, before you create an issue
you didn't plan on.
Is this spot in your yard ALWAYS wet?
#Post#: 400--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can I drain water from an easement into the canal?
DIR By: Doug K
Date: March 29, 2019, 4:40 pm
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Here's an idea that would be the lowest cost solution and needs
very little to make it work.
The issue is that the fence and trees may have raised the ground
a little over the past 25-30 years. The water looks like it
could get to the canal but the path is blocked a bit by the
swale edge.. and then the fence edge.. and then the tree roots.
But if you look hard you may find a path.
I looked and made this picture edit that you sent... took a real
close look. I have made a few assumptions having never been
there. You took the picture level and you do look downward to
the canal... if those are true then I think the current water
flow is right to left,,and it does drain away toward the canal
the further you get into your neighbor's yard on the left.
Having said that I think you can do this.
[attachimg=1]
You already have a swale... slight depression in the yard, I
would work "with" that. Make it bigger, make it move the water
where you want it to go. I am always surprised how removing just
3-4" of topsoil and getting flow going help all the water issues
I have had. Took a few walks on real rainy days but I did manage
to get our 2 acres dried out and we live BELOW a leaky dam..lol.
Let me know what you think
#Post#: 478--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can I drain water from an easement into the canal?
DIR By: guest19
Date: April 9, 2019, 2:32 pm
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Holy cow - there is so much to respond to!
First, yes - I'd love it if you could stop by to chat. You can
email me at jeffrey.hoffman@visibleman.org; I tend to check that
more than I check here.
I appreciate so much the detailed response. Let me look again at
it and see what info you were looking for.
#Post#: 479--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can I drain water from an easement into the canal?
DIR By: guest19
Date: April 9, 2019, 2:44 pm
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--- Quote ---
>
> Concern #1
> If that shallow swale extends into your neighbors yards then I
would advise you NOT to add any topsoil to level it off.. you
may be blocking natural flow. I think the water mainly flows to
the left. That left side property looks just a little lower that
the right side one, is that true? Do either of your neighbors
have a similar issue with standing water or just your lot?
>
--- End Quote ---
I think you're right that it flows to the left. The lot to the
left has a drain and doesn't have much standing water. To the
right, there is standing water, but much less. It appears to be
manually handled with a pump.
--- Quote ---
>
> Concern #2
> You are going to be working backwards from spot you plan to
exit the drain back to the swale where your "inlet" end will be.
I see two major root lines to cross over, and that will not be
easy to navigate. The job will need a small backhoe, on a
compact tractor to do it right. The idea is to maintain a drain
angle similar to pipes in your house, insuring you don't have
any place in the drains system that could collect water or ice
up in the winter.
>
--- End Quote ---
Your second response (with the very well constructed figure)
reflects what appears to be a good solution for this.
--- Quote ---
>
> Most important question... Do you and your neighbors have a
pond across all your yards in a heavy rain?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes and no. After any rain, there is a band of water across my
yard. My neighbors on either side have minimal pooling because
(to the left) there is a drain and (to the right) they've added
topsoil, I think.
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