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#Post#: 6883--------------------------------------------------
Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
By: kon8000 Date: May 18, 2022, 9:36 am
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So I think it's finally time for me to start my own thread, and
share what I've come up with for a design, before I drift from
deliberation, past pontificating, into procrastination.
I wanted to share the design I've come up with so far, as it's
almost complete, to see if I've overlooked anything obvious, or
done anything wrong. It still needs a little work, but most of
what's left will depend on the actual items I buy, and how it
fits me, after the rough mock-up is built, full-size… Have I
designed a comfy kart, or a slightly rounded, overly complicated
coffin, because I can't get back out again? I’ve just finished
building a garden shed, to free up the space in the man-cave, so
once that’s clear I’ll be making a mock-up out of 2x4 wooden
beams, to confirm how accurate I’ve been while sitting in my
office chair with a tape measure. I’m pretty sure the answer is
going to be “not very”, so some of the dimensions are going to
have to change, but fingers crossed.
Those of you who I was lucky enough to meet in person at the
inaugural CK meet may remember that I was planning on building a
kart based on a very famous train from 1916, immortalised in a
set of books in 1945… the LBSC E2 class, 060T.
[attach=1]
You might know it by a different name.
As you can see, I got a little way into that design before I
realised it had a couple of slight problems for my intended use:
[list type=decimal]
[li]I wanted to use it to take my boys (currently 2 and 5) to
school, but I wonder how quickly they are likely to grow up and
fall out of love with the tales. Not so much an issue though, as
it could be re-shelled, assuming I can build it fast enough for
them to still like it when it's on the road.[/li]
[li]The seating position puts both of them, and the engine, on
or behind the rear axle. I suspect only certain on-lookers would
see the comedy value of a kart doing a spontaneous stationary
wheelie, as the weight of daddy getting out causes both boys to
be ejected out the back, before it sets itself back down again.
Again, not an insurmountable problem, but fixing this in the
design meant it wasn't looking great, proportion-wise, and was
starting to limit the driver space considerably.[/li]
[li]In the event of an accident, their arms and heads are quite
likely to become the roll cage. This is the real kicker, and
only going to get worse, as both of them are mini giants.[/li]
[/list]
Unsurprisingly the wife was less than happy with the prospect of
that 3rd point, and said I should just make a single seater kart
instead. Something along the lines of "knock yourself out" (or
that's what I heard, at least) so onto plan B… some kind of
classic racer. This was going to be the second build I did
anyway, so just brought things forward a bit, but I wasn't yet
fully decided on which car to pick as the inspiration. Rory Race
Car, or LCC Rocket maybe? I've always been a fan of the shape of
some of the earlier F1 cars.. classic cigar-type shape, so I
hunted around for pics of my favourites. Stefan has since posted
a few which caught my eye, like the 1933 Driscoll/Jamieson
Austin, or an Appleton 1933 Special based on a Maserati. What I
picked ended up being a sketch of a 1958 F1 style car, built to
race in Italy, against American indy cars, by a company which is
quite well-known for not liking anyone to replicate their cars,
so I'm not sure I should say exactly which one. It does bear
similarities to quite a few cars, plus I've tweaked the
dimensions and basically guessed at the width, so I'm hoping I
should be OK, and they won't try and sue me or crush it.
1958 is just before all the aero wings and stuff started coming
in to F1, so shows the classic shape. This is what I've come up
with (which I’m rather pleased with):
[attach=2]
I'm not fully set on the roll hoop, but given that it's going to
be road-registered, I thought I might want some protection
against being squished. The 1inch box I've used everywhere else
just doesn't seem man enough against a truck wheel which is
likely to be taller than my whole kart!
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
The engine in the model is a very rough sketch of a Zongshen
200cc quad engine, which i think claims around 11hp and 13ft-lb,
but the only reason I've used it is the upright layout of the
cylinder, with the gearbox attached behind it, so it fits behind
the driver, in front of the rear axle, and clears the swing arm
(kinda). The front hubs and the shocks are lifted from a model
of a quad-bike I found, re-scaled to the approximate size I’ll
need. Again, I’m not set on these, as I’m still undecided
whether I want this style of hub/knuckle/calliper-carrier (eg
these from a stock-car
HTML https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363556291264),<br
/>or if I’m better off with a regular king-pin/stub-axle setup
(like Gemini Karts). I think the choice of wheel may determine
that, as I’m torn between 15in MX5 space-saver spare wheels
(with 54.1mm hub-centric 4x100 PCD) or the standard 17in pit
bike wheels (like those from Fun-bikes).
The bulk of the other bits I plan to get from a company I found
on Alibaba who make kart, quad and ATV kits (at quite reasonable
prices). Solid rear axle with chain, sprockets, brake disks,
hubs, spindles, control arms, coils, steering rack, shaft, UJ,
wheel, and possibly I may get the lights kit too. Everything in
this pic is listed for £550 (inc shipping, but may need to add
import tax):
[attach=5]
I believe what’s going to help me decide on the bits I’m unsure
about, is whether or not you all think this design counts as a
cycle-kart. I’ve recently re-read the “what is a cycle-kart”
page and found it specifically prohibits manual gearboxes, and
shiny double-wishbones on display, but those are 2 features I
really want to keep. I plan to auto-test it, and basically call
it my daily driver, so I really want it to stay planted on the
road, with some comfort, and be able to clutch-kick it, or
hand-break turn, which doesn’t work so well with a centrifugal
or CVT. The design does conform to most of the other points;
2.4m overall length, 1m track width, 1.8m wheelbase, 1m tall.
I’m not sure on the weight, as I’ve not done a materials list
yet, and like I said, the engine is still TBD, depending on what
I can find to fit for a reasonable price. If it’s already a
cycle-car, then I’ll just opt for the stronger hubs and wheels,
but if you think this is still in the spirit of a cycle-kart,
then I’ll probably go with the Gemini arms and spoked wheels.
Please let me know what you think, if you have any questions, or
would like to see any other angles, measurements or close-ups of
the design.
Thanks,
Konrad
#Post#: 6886--------------------------------------------------
Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
By: Andy_B Date: May 18, 2022, 1:46 pm
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Hi Konrad - Good job to date and you have some great ideas and
designs there (the F1 I mean!! ;D). In short to answer your
question if this will accepted generally as a 'Cyclekart' I
would say most would say yes it is, but it is a bit out on the
era as pre war is the cut off.
That aside the other question is will you be able to use it (for
a myriad of reasons we have had long meetings about) at all the
GKGB gatherings in the future? - that answer is probably not on
the track and static only. There has been deep discussion into
the parameters surrounding our hobby and we think we have a
flexible formula to cover most of the areas, with some degree of
flexibility.
I urge you to hang fire a bit longer until the new guides are
put out on the forum and have a think about some of your
choices.
Regarding the Chinese A-arm kits, I have experience in importing
those, but your image is for the larger ones which might be too
big anyway?. The basic components are ok but it is what it is
and not all the bits will stand the abuse you are talking about
and it will get very heavy!!!. I ended up selling them to folks
who were making similar quad cycle, trikes and stuff. Also, you
do need to add tax and they took 3-4 months to arrive!!
So, hopefully this is a positive for you, that you can still
tweak your designs (if you want to) and hopefully the revised
guides will help you and all the other builders.
Cheers
Andy
#Post#: 6890--------------------------------------------------
Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
By: StefanN Date: May 18, 2022, 3:54 pm
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Hi Konrad,
Glad to hear that you're starting a build. You'll find the
updated guidelines here:
HTML http://forum.cyclekartsgb.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=2<br
/> which are worth a read before you get too far down the road.
Looking forward to following your progress.
#Post#: 6895--------------------------------------------------
Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
By: kon8000 Date: May 19, 2022, 11:39 am
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Hi all, and thanks to you both for the positive comments. Andy,
thanks for the info on the Chinese parts, and yes, I'm aware
that pic is of the longer arm setup; the shorter armed kit isnt
much different in price, and it's from the same company, but the
picture isnt as nice. I'd want to fully spec out a list of parts
with them anyway, so it was more just for an example. I'll
certainly consider the weight, if I go down that route. I've not
yet been able to find a simple answer to how much tax would be
added for it... any chance you'd be able to share what you paid
in the past please? I'm expecting it to be something like 20% of
the pre-shipping price, which would put that kit around £590.
Does that seem about right to you?
Stefan, thanks for the link, but that's the "what is a
cyclekart" page I was referring to.
It would be really helpful if someone would be able to clarify
which bits of the design make it inappropriate to run on the
track with other CKs. I appreciate that 1958 is past the pre-war
ideal, but I suspect that’s purely cosmetic, not a major issue.
If I rock up in it, dressed like Sterling Moss, I dont feel it
would look out of place. If I were to use the 1933 Austin
special as the base, I think it would actually look even more
modern, but wouldn't change the structural design.
[attach=1]
I was aiming for a “vintage” appearance for my design, which I
think I’ve managed, so I hope that’s not the main contributing
factor.
The manual gearbox on the other hand… I can see why that might
be an issue, although it’s also adding more weight, which might
cancel out any performance advantage, it does take away the
simplistic nature of a squirt-n-go kart. It could also mean that
I’m able to go a bit faster than the 37mph limit. If that is the
main reason, then I’m happy to accept that I wont be racing
against other CKs. That could make the build process a little
easier, as I’ll just build exactly what I want, instead of
worrying if I’m doing something wrong, but obviously it would be
nice to be able to compete against other karts. If anyone is
able to suggest any other drive setup ideas which would still
allow me to drift, doughnut, and hand-brake turn, while still
being within the parameters of a GB CK, then I’d be happy to try
integrating that into my design.
Talking of the design, I’ve drawn it using Sketchup, which has a
free viewer (for mobiles too), so let me know if you’d like to
have a closer look, and I can send you a copy of the model. I
find it rather satisfying to be able to spin it round and zoom
in/out with my fingers. A word of caution there tho: the hours
can fly by while pondering :)
Cheers,
Konrad
#Post#: 6899--------------------------------------------------
Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
By: TheGiantTribble Date: May 19, 2022, 4:17 pm
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Hi Konrad.
I to love the 1950's Grand Prix cars, so I choose a 1930's that
was almost a 1950's style!
However re gearbox, whilst I sit in me comfy chair and think
about driving a car changing gear is an integral part of the
driving experience and fun... I can honestly
say while pounding around in a CK I've never had time to worry
about gears, or even felt I wish I could grab another gear at
any point.
Honestly I'm too busy hanging on and smiling from ear to ear.
I will also mention even with a standard engine (well no oil
sensor and a tuned exhaust, no other toys added) it has gone a
smidge, nay hairs breath over the speed you are talking about!
(actually a whole heap more in fact but I'll say that very
quietly) ;)
As for drifting, doughnuting, and handbrake turn
Yes almost every corner, never tried but recon on gravel not a
problem (apart from anyone watching who will get showered in
peddles, and I've no handbrake!
Bare in mind everything you know about cars...pretty much
doesn't apply to CK's.
And if you want a go with a no frills, one wheel driver, no
extra toys on the engine CK you are quite welcome to give mine a
go...I dare you not to be smiling when you get out of it.
Good luck with what ever you end up building.
#Post#: 6902--------------------------------------------------
Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
By: kon8000 Date: May 20, 2022, 3:30 am
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Thanks Tribble, that's very kind of you to offer. I probably
should try driving one before I commit.
With the standard GSX200, has anyone mounted it like this? Does
it cause problems, or am I right to keep looking for a similar
one that's been designed to run with the cylinder upright?
#Post#: 6903--------------------------------------------------
Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
By: Andy_B Date: May 20, 2022, 4:30 am
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Regarding the taxes and shipping costs - Mate good luck with
that one, since I got the parts the world has changed, all i
know budget what you think and double it then anything else will
be a bonus. I got clobbered for an anti dumping tax as well
which is to try an operate a fair market in the uk and bring
imported goods closely to the price of other uk suppliers. It is
still cheaper but just beware. Some of my bits came by train
apparently hence the long wait!!!
#Post#: 6905--------------------------------------------------
Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
By: chrisenamels Date: May 20, 2022, 8:03 am
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The GX200 has been used mounted vertically, I've attached a PDF
of text I lifted from
HTML https://www.cyclekartclub.com/forum.
You might also consider the Honda GC190 6Hp engine which is a
vertical OHC engine, though you would need to check it's
acceptability:
HTML https://engines.honda.com/models/model-detail/gc-horizontal.
I bought a GC135 4Hp with the intention of fitting it to a
rotovator, but a change in plans mean it'll probably find it's
way into a cyclekart at some point.
Edit:
I'm with Bill regarding a manual gearbox, apart from it not
fitting with the guidelines, there's enough to do staying on the
track, and on 4 (3 in my case) wheels, without having to change
gear too.
#Post#: 6935--------------------------------------------------
Engine Placement
By: kon8000 Date: May 24, 2022, 10:46 am
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Thanks for the info guys. I've given some more careful
consideration to the choice of engine over the weekend, and
looked into vertical placement of the GX200. It appears the
thread which Chris is referring to doesnt have much detail on
what's been done to the engine to stop it having problems
cooling/fueling/oiling, but the guy seems to know quite a bit
about fabbing and engines, and has done other things to the
engine too. I, on the other hand, dont know much about the
internals, and certainly not enough to want to crack open a
brand new engine before I even start my first build. Instead I
looked around for other vertical options, but there really
doesnt appear to be many to pick from... not sure if this is due
to covid and all the projects being built, or if it's just not
an efficient way round to have such a small engine. Most of what
I found was either sold out, or significantly more expensive, so
what I've decided to use instead is... drum roll please... A
GX200!
While looking at my model, I realised I'd positioned the
firewall in a pretty arbitrary location, based on the space left
from fitting the Zongshen quad engine and box in order to work
nicely with the jack-shaft location. I’d also envisaged having
the space behind the seat for storage.
So I took out the firewall, and found the gx200 appears to fit
nicely in its normal horizontal orientation. I've taken out the
gear selector and linkage, moved the hand-break slightly, and
drawn up a new engine cradle. I still need to draw out the Comet
TAV, but it's looking pretty good, and looks like it might get
better clearance for the rear swing arm, which should help it
sit higher in the body (so less visible).
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
It sits around 40mm off-center, but given that it only weighs
16kg, I dont think that’s much of a problem. This orientation
and position will lower the CofG and vertical rotational
inertia, so it should handle better. It should also allow the
fuel tank to sit to the left of the engine, instead of over the
rear, so the IVA man will be happier with the lower risk of
dripping fuel over the exhaust. This helps lower the CofG even
more, and should help offset the weight of the engine being
off-center. My flask of tea and my sandwiches should get plenty
of space at the top of the engine bay, and may even have room to
stow my helmet in there too!
With regards to the engine, I’ve looked at a few of the GX200
clones/replacements, and my favourite is probably the LiFan
HP212E
HTML https://power.lifan.com/English/wap/productxp_xq.aspx?cid=1422.
Similar to a Predator 212, this looks to have 212cc’s, 10bhp,
10ft/lb of torque (7.5kw, 13.5nm), electric start, and I’ve
found it for £295 (incl VAT and shipping). What do we think of
this engine, does it fit the CK ethos?
My 2nd choice is a Hyundai IC210XE, which is 212cc’s again, but
only 6.5bhp. Again it’s electric start, and I’ve found it for
£260 (also incl VAT and shipping). The max RPM is 3600, vs 5800
for the LiFan, so it might sound a little less interesting (and
I cant see the torque specs for a direct comparison), but seems
like a good choice if the LiFan is a no-go.
Any thoughts welcome.
Thanks,
Konrad
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