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#Post#: 16--------------------------------------------------
Is God unjust?
By: miro Date: November 14, 2013, 8:08 pm
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This is something I've been thinking about for a while.
God is all knowing, and all powerful. This means that as he made
humans and all the rest of it, he already knew every aspect of
what was about to happen. God created us already knowing each
choice we'd make, every thought we'd think. He knows all this
because by definition, he has to. How then, can he punish us for
not meeting his impossible standard?
He knew that as he made the universe I would be an atheist. He
knew that this means under his rules, I would go to hell, and
then be tortured forever (or whatever else it is thats meant to
go on down there.) He created me, knowing I would never reach
the standard he wanted, and therefore he created me to fail.
Why? Isn't this an incredibly cruel action. For an all good
deity surely building a consciousness that he knew is going to
be tortured forever is a terrible thing to do. If he creates
billions of people that he knows will never go to his heaven,
but instead burn in his hell, does this not make him a sadistic
God? Is he really good?
I would appreciate your thoughts.
#Post#: 19--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is God unjust?
By: Josh P Date: November 14, 2013, 10:18 pm
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So there's a few things to think about.
The first is "How can he punish us for not meeting his
impossible standard?". Nobody meets the perfect standard. Only
Jesus met that standard, sinless, and he took upon himself every
mistake humanity has ever, and will ever make. He doesn't punish
us for not meeting the standard - because by allowing Jesus to
take the sins, he also takes the punishment. In God's eyes, if
we let Jesus do his job, we have met the standard.
The second is the correlation between fore-knowledge, causation
and responsibility. God fore-knew everyone's decisions - does
this mean he caused those decisions? You seem to come from a
position of no free-will, where the mind is purely mechanical
and fully subscribed to cause and effect. If you wish to debate
God's goodness, this is debating on the Christian's ground - we
assume that God is true, and what he has done is true (or how
can we debate the nature of such events?). It is a part of
Christian belief (as I understand it) that free-will exists.
There is a part of the mind that is not subject to cause and
effect - a part that is purely us, not a formed 'nurture' idea.
The responsibility for making decisions lies on our shoulders,
not God's.
As a sidepoint, I am not familiar with mainstream Christian
beliefs on the whole Hell issue - I don't think it's something
many people muse about. My personal belief is that as Jesus
defeated Satan, Hell has been/will be (tenses are confusing in
other dimensions) destroyed. I don't believe the lake of sulphur
and fire that people who reject God are thrown to is eternal
torture - I personally believe is simply ends them. The end. No
more existance.
So the main issue is the distinction between fore-knowledge,
causation and responsibility - can you explain how he is
responsible exactly? Remember the existance of free-will.
I'd probably describe the situation like this - just humour me,
I like analogies.
If I had a child, and that child commited suicide, is it all my
fault for creating the child?
If I created a clay pot, which was smashed, am I responsible for
it's smashing, as I caused it to be in the first place?
I see life as an opportunity from God. A choice, if you like,
between allowing God to take our sins on himself, and allowing
us to become perfect in his sight, or the choice to reject him
as unscientific, unjust, or any other of a myriad of available
reasons.
#Post#: 20--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is God unjust?
By: Rohan Date: November 15, 2013, 1:38 am
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Why is there even sin in the first place? Correct me if I'm
wrong, but sin came about when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of
Knowledge. The fact that god didn't want them eating from this
tree should be enough to show that he's not a nice guy. Why
couldn't he have said 'Oh, you ate from that tree. Well, now
you're not just mindless slaves. Now you're slaves who are in no
position to ever challenge my authority at all. I can deal with
that.' and let things go on as before?
He decided to throw them out, and change how the entire world
worked because he had a hissy fit over something that they did
which he set up to happen (omnipotent and omniscient).
From what I gather, you seem to only follow his laws because he
says they're the right ones. But how do you know? How does *he*
know, without having some knowledge of morality outside of
himself?
Either morality is independent of him, and he's merely the
conduit for conveying it to us, or he's forcing it upon us
because he has authority/power, in which case he's a ruthless
totalitarian dictator.
#Post#: 21--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is God unjust?
By: miro Date: November 15, 2013, 4:09 pm
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I agree. He creates each person, yes? So he must have created Mr
Hitler knowing full well he would then commit genocide. He made
Hitler in such a way that defined his beliefs. He then, by
extension, orchestrated the holocaust.
#Post#: 23--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is God unjust?
By: Josh P Date: November 15, 2013, 8:12 pm
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This is totally a placeholder. A little post to say 'Yes, I will
be answering this, but right now I'm too busy'.
Substitute busy for just about any other descriptor when
appropriate. Lazy, tired or bored suit right now.
I mean, it's basically to let you know you haven't simply won
because I can't reply. I just haven't gotten around to it yet...
#Post#: 26--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is God unjust?
By: Rohan Date: November 15, 2013, 9:35 pm
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Oh. Umm. Josh, how could you ever think we'd do such a thing?
We'd never make such assumptions... *Puts away celebratory
decorations*
#Post#: 29--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is God unjust?
By: miro Date: November 15, 2013, 10:45 pm
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Hey Rohan, do you want the champaign now or lat.. oh. Damn.
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