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#Post#: 156504--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 23 for Argentina
DIR By: FrostAndFire
Date: July 17, 2026, 5:11 am
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I have no problem with residency. If someone has lived here for
five years, they're part of this country. It's a long time out
of a professional career. It's not like some other sports where
you can turn up and start representing a country straight away.
You have to not represented another country and spent a long
time here. Good enough for me. But then I'm in favour of
immigrants coming to the country and being British, and I know
some people aren't.
#Post#: 156505--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 23 for Argentina
DIR By: Quinky
Date: July 17, 2026, 6:49 am
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> What a baffling choice of players to talk about.
>
> Mike Catt: English by birth (mother), moved to England after
leaving school
> Dylan Hartley: English by birth (mother), came through the
English schools and academy system
> Matt Stevens: English by birth (both parents), played uni
rugby in England and then Bath picked him up
>
> As much as I have no problem with van Rensberg, comparing him
with those three players is obviously extremely daft.
>
> Better off comparing him with Mouritz Botha as another
residency qualification. Or Lesley Vainikolo. Or Perry
Freshwater. Or Mark van Gisbergen. Or Hendre Fourie. Or any of
the other residency qualifiers mentioned like Flutey.
>
--- End Quote ---
Oh forgive me Sage one for being daft.
Perhaps you might consider that all of those players were born
outside of the UK. That seems to be one of the tenets of the
issue under discussion.
Perhaps your comment was the daft one.
#Post#: 156506--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 23 for Argentina
DIR By: FrostAndFire
Date: July 17, 2026, 7:01 am
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Here's the thing: the rules are the rules. If you don't like
them, campaign to get them changed. Don't take it out on the
teams and players who are obeying the rules.
#Post#: 156508--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 23 for Argentina
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 17, 2026, 7:18 am
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--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> Oh forgive me Sage one for being daft.
>
> Perhaps you might consider that all of those players were born
outside of the UK. That seems to be one of the tenets of the
issue under discussion.
>
> Perhaps your comment was the daft one.
>
--- End Quote ---
Who cares where they're born? They're all people qualified to
play for England and to be considered English the moment they
were born. Their professional careers were all in England.
They're terrible examples when compared to the topic at hand,
which is a player whose only qualification to play for England
is that he has spent a few years of his professional career
here.
I am both English and Dutch. Obviously I was not born in both
countries. Marcus Smith is extremely English but wasn't born in
England. The Most Irish Man Ever, Ronan O'Gara, was born in the
USA. Birthplace matters if it confers eligibility but it does
not exclude you from being of a certain nationality. And by
every reasonable metric (coming through the rugby system,
starting professional rugby here, lineage, etc), the likes of
Stevens, Catt, and Hartley just aren't an issue in these
conversations. There are plenty of other players who do bear
comparison, though.
#Post#: 156509--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 23 for Argentina
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 17, 2026, 7:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: FrostAndFire link ---
>
> Here's the thing: the rules are the rules. If you don't like
them, campaign to get them changed. Don't take it out on the
teams and players who are obeying the rules.
>
--- End Quote ---
Nothing anyone on this thread does will matter one iota.
Discussing the validity of the rules is fair game. No-one is
taking it out on the players, but I definitely think it's fair
to point out when teams cynically exploit the rules or take it
to an extreme, which is something we talk about quite a lot
(caterpillar rucks anyone? Blood substitutions? Uncontested
scrums?)
#Post#: 156511--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 23 for Argentina
DIR By: Quinten Poulsen
Date: July 17, 2026, 9:02 am
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Brad Barritt was a curious one. He was born in South Africa,
although I think both parents were born in Rhodesia. All four
grandparents were/are English.
#Post#: 156512--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 23 for Argentina
DIR By: FrostAndFire
Date: July 17, 2026, 9:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If we're discussing rules, I'd much rather have someone who's
lived in the country for five years than someone who's never
been somewhere but has one grandparent from there. That's what
bugs me.
#Post#: 156514--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 23 for Argentina
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 17, 2026, 11:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: FrostAndFire link ---
>
> If we're discussing rules, I'd much rather have someone who's
lived in the country for five years than someone who's never
been somewhere but has one grandparent from there. That's what
bugs me.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not helped by the grandparent rule historically almost always
benefiting blow-ins with literally no other ties beyond a brief
stint during their pro career.
#Post#: 156515--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 23 for Argentina
DIR By: Quinky
Date: July 17, 2026, 11:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Who cares where they're born? They're all people qualified to
play for England and to be considered English the moment they
were born. Their professional careers were all in England.
They're terrible examples when compared to the topic at hand,
which is a player whose only qualification to play for England
is that he has spent a few years of his professional career
here.
>
> I am both English and Dutch. Obviously I was not born in both
countries. Marcus Smith is extremely English but wasn't born in
England. The Most Irish Man Ever, Ronan O'Gara, was born in the
USA. Birthplace matters if it confers eligibility but it does
not exclude you from being of a certain nationality. And by
every reasonable metric (coming through the rugby system,
starting professional rugby here, lineage, etc), the likes of
Stevens, Catt, and Hartley just aren't an issue in these
conversations. There are plenty of other players who do bear
comparison, though.
>
--- End Quote ---
Another "daft" comment.
You state "They're all people qualified to play for England".
Then you state "the topic at hand, which is a player whose only
qualification to play for England is that he has spent a few
years of his professional career here." By dint of which he's
"qualified to play for England".
Take your pick, you can't have it both ways. Either a player is
qualified, in accordance with the rules, or he isn't. It's not
for you to decide that a rule is or isn't reasonably applied in
any single case. It's also not for you to declare that someone's
point is daft. You're not the arbiter of what's classed as a
reasonable comment, much as you'd like to think you are.
Would you like that in Dutch?
#Post#: 156517--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 23 for Argentina
DIR By: Quinten Poulsen
Date: July 17, 2026, 11:51 am
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I think it's perfectly fair to compare/contrast players who have
English parents and come to play rugby in the country at a young
age against those players who have little or no connection with
England other than a 5 year residency, and particularly players
who didn't have to wait 5 years when the rule was different.
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