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#Post#: 154715--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: FrostAndFire
Date: May 27, 2026, 10:14 am
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--- Quote from: Banstead Quin link ---
>
> Sorry FaF, not sure what point you're trying to make here.
There are plenty of good examples of not good enough getting
picked over the years, so not sure that is a valid argument. I
think it's fair to argue that the best players should get picked
but how do you judge who is the best? I'd say he's not been as
good as Lawrence has been this season but the best of Lawrence
is in a Bath shirt, as England's game plan doesn't mirror Baths.
A big basher at 12 I get, not sure at 13.
>
> But as I said, let's see what he does if he get's in, I'm
certainly not beating the "English only" drum as there have been
some very good examples of the other playing well and being a
credit for England.
>
--- End Quote ---
Best means the person who best fits the gameplan the coaches are
running and best fits with the other players in the team. I have
no idea if that will be BJVR or someone else. I guess that's
what Borthwick will be figuring out in these sessions. There's
probably no such thing as an objective "best" in most positions,
other than a freak like Lomu or Dupont.
#Post#: 154719--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: Quinky
Date: May 27, 2026, 2:33 pm
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> The rugby pathway in SA is simpler and they breed more
appropriate players for reasons to do with the climate,
environment, school setup, and probably food if we're being
honest.
>
> But we're talking about a player who would probably excel for
SA, because he's a very good rugby player and SA likes and makes
the most of players like that. They just have other options who
suit them better and who are game-breakingly good at one or two
things.
>
> I reckon he'd get called up by most international sides. The
French would've looked at him, Ireland would go nuts for him,
Australia would be keen on an alternative to their current
options, and the Kiwi midfield has been terrible for some time
plus they've turned their only good crash centre into an
openside for some reason
>
--- End Quote ---
The pathway is different, but there's also a lot more
competition.
I honestly don't think he'd get a looknin if he opted for the
Boks.
He is a very good player though.
#Post#: 154722--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: May 27, 2026, 5:20 pm
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I'm saying if he did get picked by SA to play he'd likely do
very well for them - he's a very physical player with a good
rugby brain and excellent ball skills. SA have some incredible
options of course.
#Post#: 154724--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: Camquin
Date: May 28, 2026, 2:25 am
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The pathway is purely under the control of the ten Premiership
sides, so there are in fact ten pathways - and some are better
than others.
But, there do seem to be problems both with it not producing
enough players fit to play for England. And in the players who
do not make the professional game dropping out completely,
starving the lower levels of talents.
But that is a completely different problem to whether we let
players play abroad.
#Post#: 154726--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: May 28, 2026, 3:26 am
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--- Quote from: FrostAndFire link ---
>
> Best means the person who best fits the gameplan the coaches
are running and best fits with the other players in the team. I
have no idea if that will be BJVR or someone else. I guess
that's what Borthwick will be figuring out in these sessions.
There's probably no such thing as an objective "best" in most
positions, other than a freak like Lomu or Dupont.
>
--- End Quote ---
Ah ok, thanks.
Dupont, is he all that? I hear he wears Stu Townsend pyjamas!!!
#Post#: 154731--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: May 28, 2026, 4:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Camquin link ---
>
> The pathway is purely under the control of the ten Premiership
sides, so there are in fact ten pathways - and some are better
than others.
>
> But, there do seem to be problems both with it not producing
enough players fit to play for England. And in the players who
do not make the professional game dropping out completely,
starving the lower levels of talents.
>
> But that is a completely different problem to whether we let
players play abroad.
>
--- End Quote ---
What's this based on? As a reminder, England remain the only NH
side to have won the world cup, and have made the final multiple
times. Despite Borthwick's incredibly negative and limited game
plan, England managed 3rd at the last world cup, and despite
being well beaten in the 2019 final England produced several
fabulous performances against some of the best sides in the
world on the way to that match.
We produce plenty of players fit to play for England. The stock
is there - it's how it's handled that's the problem.
#Post#: 154734--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: poorfour
Date: May 28, 2026, 5:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> What's this based on? As a reminder, England remain the only
NH side to have won the world cup, and have made the final
multiple times. Despite Borthwick's incredibly negative and
limited game plan, England managed 3rd at the last world cup,
and despite being well beaten in the 2019 final England produced
several fabulous performances against some of the best sides in
the world on the way to that match.
>
> We produce plenty of players fit to play for England. The
stock is there - it's how it's handled that's the problem.
>
--- End Quote ---
Inside centre seems to be a perennial problem position, though.
In the 20+ years since Greenwood retired the most successful
option we’ve had there has been a flyhalf played out of
position.
#Post#: 154735--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: May 28, 2026, 5:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think the main difference between us and say SA who appear to
have the types of 12's we like (battering ram beasts) is how we
steer youth into their positions.
I'm convinced if the likes of Earl/Mercer/Simmonds/Dombrandt etc
were South African, they would have been conditioned into 12's
rather than 8s.
#Post#: 154739--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: May 28, 2026, 6:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> Inside centre seems to be a perennial problem position,
though. In the 20+ years since Greenwood retired the most
successful option we’ve had there has been a flyhalf played out
of position.
>
--- End Quote ---
Successful, sure. That doesn't mean we haven't had the players,
it means we have decided that There Is No Other Option and
unless someone comes in who offers the same supposed level of
quality in all areas, including the ones that are invisible and
impossible to measure, then they're not up to it. I'd argue that
this is more about being unwilling to be flexible in selection
and to give other kinds of players a chance to grow in the role.
Many teams would be absolutely fine with picking a decent player
who can do a job and be part of a successful international team.
Many teams have to do this, because the "world class player in
every position" thing is a myth even for the sides who are
lauded as some of the best we've ever seen.
We have always had the players who would do just fine at 12. We
just had a fixed idea of what we needed from them and what
success looked like. Hence Tindall getting picked for about a
thousand matches long after his peak, Farrell being an
ever-present, etc. Even when some players came in and did well
on tours or other matches they never got a real shake.
I will say that it's clear our player development has been much,
much better from about 2012 onwards - about the same time we
started producing a consistently good U20s side.
#Post#: 154746--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: FrostAndFire
Date: May 28, 2026, 8:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Banstead Quin link ---
>
> Ah ok, thanks.
>
> Dupont, is he all that? I hear he wears Stu Townsend
pyjamas!!!
>
--- End Quote ---
You never know until the end of someone's career, but yeah.
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