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#Post#: 154697--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: FrostAndFire
Date: May 27, 2026, 4:42 am
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--- Quote from: Banstead Quin link ---
>
> Is BJVR better than his EQ peers in the Prem?
>
--- End Quote ---
If he isn't, he won't get picked. If he is, he should be picked.
If someone is qualified, I'm not really into the whole nativist
idea of excluding them based on whether or not we think they
'English enough'. If people don't like the rules, they should
campaign to change them, not make it about an individual.
#Post#: 154698--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: Yareet
Date: May 27, 2026, 4:50 am
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--- Quote from: Banstead Quin link ---
>
> I agree with MQ here. If this had been Esterhuizen coming into
the centres, it would be framed as a coop, because of the player
he is and he is still better than any 12 in our system.
>
> I also agree that his legitimacy is the secondary issue. Is
BJVR better than his EQ peers in the Prem? I don't think so but
I'd frame my argument around that but DC made a good point on
RUW last week, English born centres grow up dreaming of playing
for England but BJVR grew up dreaming of playing for the Boks,
this is just a job for him. That could work out better as he
won't be tainted by the emotion of it, that all but the best
sports people have a way of filtering out.
>
> See what happens I suppose, if he doesn't improve us, he'll be
out of there quicker than he came in.
>
--- End Quote ---
Care’s argument sounds great in theory but I’m not sure the
facts back it up.
JGP, Aki, etc. have played pretty well for Ireland.
#Post#: 154699--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: never sleep
Date: May 27, 2026, 5:07 am
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Obolensky did pretty well for England against the All Blacks.
He had only had his British passport for around a month.
#Post#: 154700--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: Fearless Fred
Date: May 27, 2026, 5:17 am
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--- Quote from: never sleep link ---
>
> Obolensky did pretty well for England against the All Blacks.
> He had only had his British passport for around a month.
>
--- End Quote ---
Fun fact: The ball from that game is in the New Zealand Sports
Hall Of Fame in Dunedin (in fact, that hall of fame is the upper
floor of the Railway Station, but well worth a visit if you're
ever there). I managed to see it when I was there in '24:
HTML https://i.ibb.co/rKwxH9fc/PXL-20240705-223424135.jpg
#Post#: 154701--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: Camquin
Date: May 27, 2026, 5:25 am
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If he is better than any of the other EQ centres, he should be
picked - but we know that there have been many times when the
"best" player has not been picked, or picked in the wrong
position.
Though partly because it is hard to define best.
However, if he is, you do have to ask - what is wrong with the
English system, that someone nowhere near the SA side is the
best choice for what still purports to be a top tier nation.
#Post#: 154702--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: Quinky
Date: May 27, 2026, 5:29 am
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--- Quote from: deadlyfrom5yardsout link ---
>
> Poor old Stinky. That sense of entitlement getting you down
again?
>
--- End Quote ---
Their loss, Dangly...
#Post#: 154703--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: May 27, 2026, 5:58 am
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--- Quote from: Mayor West link ---
> Experience in France must improve the quality and knowledge
that the players pick up in a different environment.
>
--- End Quote ---
I hear this get repeated a lot, but I'm not sure it actually
holds up. I'm trying to think of players who came back from
France having obviously improved (which isn't the same as being
successful for their French side).
Mercer? Absolutely not.
Tom Willis? I don't see it. I think his biggest improvement has
been in the last 3 months.
Arundell? Nope. Also it was very funny that after scoring a
hat-trick on debut in France, it sparked a wave of these
"playing in France makes you better" comments in the media,
which a) doesn't make a lick of sense in relation to Arundell,
and b) was particularly funny once he nosedived and started
having a really bad time.
Ashton? lol, no.
Nick Kennedy? Absolutely not.
Owen Farrell? lol and indeed lmao
We'll see what happens with guys like Marchant, who don't appear
to have torn up trees, or Lawes, who was world class before he
went.
Our good players go to France and, surrounded by better players
on average than they were with before, often excel. Does that
mean they are improving, or does it simply mean that French
setups are conducive to getting the best out of these players?
Take Stef Armitage - for Toulon he didn't really have to tackle
or hit rucks, he could just wait to go for turnovers or hang
about in midfield for a carry, safe in the knowledge that their
world class players would do the dirty work for him. Nick
Abendanon was a fine player for Bath who was a world beater in
France doing the same things he was doing before. Jack Willis is
a player who ruled the roost in club rugby when he could stay
fit, and the French have kept him fit, but his failings (largely
around a lack of pace) haven't gone away and he actually wins
fewer turnovers in France than he did for England or Wasps, but
is considered one of the best players in Europe because of the
same high impact moments he was producing before. Manu, Mako,
Billy all seemed to find it fairly easy going in France despite
being at the tail end of their careers and not really producing
domestically for some time Meanwhile, someone like Sam Simmonds
has not replicated the sustained excellence he displayed at
Exeter.
I think it's very hard to say that the default is English
players go to France and become better players. I'm not sure the
evidence is there.
#Post#: 154704--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: May 27, 2026, 6:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Camquin link ---
>
> If he is better than any of the other EQ centres, he should be
picked - but we know that there have been many times when the
"best" player has not been picked, or picked in the wrong
position.
>
> Though partly because it is hard to define best.
>
> However, if he is, you do have to ask - what is wrong with the
English system, that someone nowhere near the SA side is the
best choice for what still purports to be a top tier nation.
>
--- End Quote ---
The rugby pathway in SA is simpler and they breed more
appropriate players for reasons to do with the climate,
environment, school setup, and probably food if we're being
honest.
But we're talking about a player who would probably excel for
SA, because he's a very good rugby player and SA likes and makes
the most of players like that. They just have other options who
suit them better and who are game-breakingly good at one or two
things.
I reckon he'd get called up by most international sides. The
French would've looked at him, Ireland would go nuts for him,
Australia would be keen on an alternative to their current
options, and the Kiwi midfield has been terrible for some time
plus they've turned their only good crash centre into an
openside for some reason
#Post#: 154710--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: poorfour
Date: May 27, 2026, 9:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Take Stef Armitage - for Toulon he didn't really have to
tackle or hit rucks, he could just wait to go for turnovers or
hang about in midfield for a carry, safe in the knowledge that
their world class players would do the dirty work for him.
--- End Quote ---
I’m with you completely on your wider point, and I’ll take the
opportunity to point out that during the peak of calls for
Armitage, he and Robshaw had almost identical 1:1 ratios of
turnovers to penalties conceded (looking at pool stage Champions
Cup games for comparability).
The difference was that Armitage made something like 11
turnovers across the run of games, but conceded 11 penalties.
Robshaw made 3 of each.
The fans and pundits saw the turnovers; the coaches counted the
penalties (and also where, when and how they were made or
conceded). Sometimes what makes the highlight reel is not what
actually matters.
#Post#: 154713--------------------------------------------------
Re: Want Jack Willis to play for England? Answer these questions
first
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: May 27, 2026, 9:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: FrostAndFire link ---
>
> If he isn't, he won't get picked. If he is, he should be
picked. If someone is qualified, I'm not really into the whole
nativist idea of excluding them based on whether or not we think
they 'English enough'. If people don't like the rules, they
should campaign to change them, not make it about an individual.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry FaF, not sure what point you're trying to make here. There
are plenty of good examples of not good enough getting picked
over the years, so not sure that is a valid argument. I think
it's fair to argue that the best players should get picked but
how do you judge who is the best? I'd say he's not been as good
as Lawrence has been this season but the best of Lawrence is in
a Bath shirt, as England's game plan doesn't mirror Baths. A big
basher at 12 I get, not sure at 13.
But as I said, let's see what he does if he get's in, I'm
certainly not beating the "English only" drum as there have been
some very good examples of the other playing well and being a
credit for England.
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