DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
ComeAllWithin (Harlequins Rugby)
HTML https://comeallwithin.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: ComeAllWithin Board
*****************************************************
#Post#: 146397--------------------------------------------------
Re: Much blame to go around. Let’s take a temperature take.
DIR By: poorfour
Date: December 23, 2025, 12:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: FrostAndFire link ---
>
> You can't criticise a movie because you're not a director.
>
> You can't criticise a book because you're not a writer.
>
> You can't criticise a song because you're not a musician.
>
> You can't criticise a CEO because you're not C-suite.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well, if we have to go back to Sesame Street level, three of
these things are kinda the same, but one of these things is not
like the others.
Criticising a movie is criticising a thing - and very often you
don't know unless you're an insider or someone has broken the
story exactly why a movie is bad. No-one sets out to make a bad
movie, it's actually pretty rare that the fault lies with one
individual.
And yes, I'd urge you to be cautious before criticising and
Individual human being when you don't actually know what the
terms of their job are.
I am always reminded of when John Kingston (who like Andy
Robinson for England was a good head coach who made the wrong
move by applying for the top job) said he took up the DoR job
and got access to the players' contracts, he revised his opinion
of several players once he knew what Quins were paying them.
(And by the way, it's nonsense to suggest he "should have
known". It was clear that this was something that had been
decided above Head Coach level - and probably at least in part
because that frees the coach to look at performance alone when
thinking about selection).
We do not know how coaches are appointed or what responsibility
the CEO has for on field performance. The only thing that's
reasonably certain is that sacking the entire management
hierarchy in a response to poor performance is not likely to
bring about positive change I'm the short term.
#Post#: 146401--------------------------------------------------
Re: Much blame to go around. Let’s take a temperature take.
DIR By: The Kid
Date: December 23, 2025, 1:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
In essence, the good people running Harlequin FC have two goals:
1) Sustain and grow the club so it lasts another 150+ years
2) Deliver success on the pitch, win trophies.
On the former, things are good. Commercially, it is hard to
argue with where the club is and the progress made. The big
events are well run and make the club profitable. Social media,
part of what it takes to sustain in 2025, is done very well by
the club. Things feel sustainable, and the club has a strong
brand. The investment in the women’s game feels appropriate.
On the latter, it’s hard to see the positives over the past
year. In March 2025, the coaching staff (Millard and Wilson)
stood in front of everyone and stated there was a three year
plan to improve the pathway, deepen the squad, and build around
a (better) defence. This is best explained by the numbers, since
state of play 2025.
Played 23, Won 6, Lost 17.
Average Points for: 23.5
Average points Against: 32
Times scored > 30 points: 4
Times conceded > 30 points: 10 (7 of these > 40)
It’s pretty apparent that this is not good; not enough points
are being scored, and way too many being shelled (averaging a
try BP a game). I don’t think anyone would argue that this is
currently good enough, especially given the narrative around
freedom, enjoyment and style of play, none of which passes the
eye test. We look disjointed, and a “soft touch” compared to
other teams.
This makes the (essential in 2025) investment into brand and
social media a bit harder to stomach as there’s a lot of hype
around what are objectively poor performances on the pitch. If
performances are bad, then the commercial stuff – while
essential and should be proactively developed – will matter a
lot less. There is a limit to just how much of a mediocre
product you can sell over a period of time, and all the
commercial stuff will be for little if perfomances on the pitch
see us finish between 8th and 10th every year.
Based on what was said at State of Play (taken at face value),
this will go one of two ways. Either this will be seen as taking
pain now to see some younger players come of age and be
tolerated for another year to wait for the corner to turn, or
it’ll be seen as a need for change if this is seen as not good
enough.
The pathway element is beginning to show up (Carr, Friday,
Waghorn, Benson all breaking through in last 12 months) but
isn’t reshaping things in the way it ought to – none of those
players are nailed on starters (and may not become them) hence a
large number of more experienced signings over the age of 30.
The defence element really hasn’t seen things improve at all,
and seen as a worst case, has all but destroyed the attack and
attractive play for which the club is known.
The club acknowledges it can do more off the field (new, more
modern training facilities etc) to put a better environment
around the players. Maybe that buys the current setup time, as
part of this three year vision? Or maybe they tear it down now,
make the investment in the training ground, and go for the sort
of cultural reset that saw Bath turn around in the last 3-4
years, on a similar investment basis.
All said and done, this initially feels like a coaching issue,
especially if one judges the club against its own rhetoric from
the state of play in 2025, where it’s missing the mark on all
three of the things it set out to do on the men's playing side.
Equally, it could run a lot deeper if the culture continues to
miss the mark in driving performance on the pitch, for which the
accountability must ultimately sit higher than DOR level.
The club can hit its net promotor score KPIs as much and as
often as it likes, but until the performance match the
aesthetics, the club won’t fulfil its potential as title
contenders with a deep enough squad to make a European run. It
all begins and ends on the pitch. I don't think that's lost on
people, but it's hard to argue that the playing side of things
is working right now, at all. Change beckons.
#Post#: 146407--------------------------------------------------
Re: Much blame to go around. Let’s take a temperature take.
DIR By: Quinky
Date: December 24, 2025, 2:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Subterra link ---
>
> When a company is not performing and results are far from
satisfactory it's the CEO that gets fired.
> He is the man in charge at the end of the day.
> As for making money a £3 million plus debt is not making
money.
> Maybe he went to the same school as Rachel from accounts (who
has no accounting qualifications) or the Abbot school of
management.
> The man should go.
> This is all falling about under his watch.
>
--- End Quote ---
The "company" is doing very well. The "product" isn't good, but
the customers are still paying for it.
#Post#: 146408--------------------------------------------------
Re: Much blame to go around. Let’s take a temperature take.
DIR By: Rugbycat
Date: December 24, 2025, 3:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
We really don’t know exactly how much input the CEO has into the
appointments of coaches and other things mentioned in this
thread, and sacking the manager or chairman is very much a
football thing.
Our current situation is very typical of us as a club, and in
the professional era we have won the premiership twice and been
relegated once, we have had lots of false dawns and numerous can
we get any worse periods.
We are bemoaning our performances against Bristol and Gloucester
both oddly clubs who have never won the league, Bristols owner
has the mantra of entertaining and if they lose doing it so
what, Gloucester are underfunded and just seem to have breaking
even as a goal.
The world goes on for Harlequins and will undoubtedly get better
for us, this season has been a perfect storm on the coaching
front and disappointing, but knee jerk sackings and appointments
may well just make it worse.
I have watched Harlequins ever since my dad brought me to a
game, and it made me want to play, I take both my daughter and
son to the stoop and both of them now play, and love the game,
even my wife from SoCal has been converted.
Harlequins is different from other clubs and much misunderstood
and misrepresented by others from outside the club, but constant
success on the field has never been a factor and that has always
made winning the Harlequins way enjoyable, taking that from the
club to become a Leicester clone, is not very appealing to me.
Bottom line we need a new head coach/Dor and to look at which
players we release and who we build around, but the whole sack
the CEO narrative is based on companies with shareholders to
placate, not on the most historic rugby club in the world.
#Post#: 146410--------------------------------------------------
Re: Much blame to go around. Let’s take a temperature take.
DIR By: Archquin
Date: December 24, 2025, 4:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Anyhow, despite all the gloom and doom, may I wish all Quins
fans a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year [emoji1431]
#Post#: 146412--------------------------------------------------
Re: Much blame to go around. Let’s take a temperature take.
DIR By: FrostAndFire
Date: December 24, 2025, 5:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You don't need to know the details of the top guy's contract to
know that the buck eventually stops with him. You can't be a CEO
of a rugby club and say, "the rugby's nothing to do with me".
You're in charge. If things aren't working out, you have to fix
them.
#Post#: 146413--------------------------------------------------
Re: Much blame to go around. Let’s take a temperature take.
DIR By: FrostAndFire
Date: December 24, 2025, 5:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Also, there seems to be the repeated idea that critics of the
management are saying "fire the CEO", which at least I am not.
I'm saying they need to turn more focus on the product. And
maybe they are. Maybe they have a secret plan they are not
sharing (which wouldn't be unreasonable). But we've been getting
worse for several seasons now, and that has to change. The
people at the top are ultimately responsible for that. That's
the job in any company.
#Post#: 146414--------------------------------------------------
Re: Much blame to go around. Let’s take a temperature take.
DIR By: Subterra
Date: December 24, 2025, 5:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: FrostAndFire link ---
>
> You don't need to know the details of the top guy's contract
to know that the buck eventually stops with him. You can't be a
CEO of a rugby club and say, "the rugby's nothing to do with
me". You're in charge. If things aren't working out, you have to
fix them.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, grow a pair and address the supporters which without you
have no club.
CEO needs to make a statement much like Exeter did, and look how
they have turned things around. (Not much to take from that last
game at Sandy Park.)
Even appoint a temporary DOR and give it a go and get rid of the
dead wood.
#Post#: 146422--------------------------------------------------
Re: Much blame to go around. Let’s take a temperature take.
DIR By: championes
Date: December 24, 2025, 8:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> I think you've wildly misunderstood Danny's comment in favour
of your years long drum-banging about player power. The point
isn't that the players are all deliberately doing what they want
and are being too individualistic. It's that they are poorly
coached and the staff have done a terrible job of putting
together a cohesive game plan and organised attacking and
defensive structures.
>
> Players attempting offloads that aren't on? Apart from that
absolutely not being the problem against Bristol - poor
execution of skills was a huge issue, not the decision to throw
an offload that went wrong - it's also pretty much what our
attacking game (such as it is) actually relies on! Quins are
deliberately set up to be an off the cuff side who use the high
risk plays to score tries.
>
> I mean, you only have to read the press that comes out of the
club about the Quins style of play, about players being told to
trust their skills, about wanting to express themselves, etc etc
to know that this kind of play is what the coaches are looking
for. Quins weren't doing it under Gustard, and for a period
under Wilson, because during those times the team was being
coached into a much more conservative game plan. In all cases
the team is basically doing what they're told!
>
> Fundamentally, if you're looking at a game like that and
deciding the problem is that the players are making decisions
contrary to how they've been coached, rather than a fundamental
issue with skills, then surely there'd be some evidence of a
good and coherent game plan that these players are occasionally
ruining. There isn't.
>
> Player power is absolutely not the problem. We have fewer big
personalities than most other teams - certainly the top 6 sides
- and the lack of leadership is a huge problem. Every sports
team I can think of that had an issue with player power had a
heap of very successful and very experienced players who were
very hard headed. If you think Quins has a bunch of those, then
please let us know who they are so that we can all start a
campaign for them to get selected ahead of the guys we're
currently relying on.
>
--- End Quote ---
Didn’t mention player power once.
Don’t think I misunderstood DC - he said the team looked like a
collection of individuals with no plan, which I agreed with and
I think that’s the point you’re making as well.
I’m pretty sure my post was about a lack of leadership on the
field.
#Post#: 146436--------------------------------------------------
Re: Much blame to go around. Let’s take a temperature take.
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: December 24, 2025, 11:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Some of these comments are maddening.
You can't criticise the CEO unless you're a CEO of a sports club
of FTSE 100 business
We've always been mediocre bar the odd blip so why is it a
problem we are now
As long as we play the quins way it's all fine.
The quins way for several years has been turgid rugby. Why
should we settle for lower mid table mediocrity just because
that's the historic norm. Why can't we question the guy running
the place when we're clearly cutting corners on the management
front
*****************************************************
Page 6 of 12
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page