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#Post#: 144944--------------------------------------------------
Fin Smith is the victim of England’s fly-half roulette
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: November 20, 2025, 7:25 am
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HTML https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/e7c468ac6bd20aad
#Post#: 144947--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fin Smith is the victim of England’s fly-half roulette
DIR By: poorfour
Date: November 20, 2025, 7:56 am
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In full on Hellograph mode there, I see.
I'm pretty sure that all three fly halves will see plenty of
game time over the next two years (even if it's not always at
10). I'm also pretty sure that the papers will continue to write
puff pieces about whichever fly half isn't included, unless it's
Marcus in which case they will write about his fall from grace
and how he's been overtaken by the others.
In practice, I'm pretty certain that Borthwick has a clear view
of which player is right for which phase of which game plan and
will select the pair who offer the best fit, whether starting or
off the bench. In that case, Fin's disadvantage is not just his
lack of an additional position but being closer in style to
Ford.
#Post#: 144948--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fin Smith is the victim of England’s fly-half roulette
DIR By: FrostAndFire
Date: November 20, 2025, 9:12 am
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Ford has had good games, and after the successful summer tour,
the 10 shirt was his to lose. Fin Smith isn't going to take it
until he can prove he's better than Ford. Marcus is a victim of
his versatility and so seems destined for either the bench or 15
when established 15s aren't available.
#Post#: 144949--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fin Smith is the victim of England’s fly-half roulette
DIR By: Seequin
Date: November 20, 2025, 10:22 am
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There does seem to be a bit more clarity of thought in the
England backs this year coupled with Ford’s form.
The pile on on Marcus and the over praise of Fin was always a
bit ridiculous.
For what it’s worth I think Fin is a very good player in the
making but he is not quite there yet against the top teams. He
has a good understanding with his Saints colleagues but he can
be guilty of just shovelling the ball on and he could be sharper
in creating space for his centres in the faster environment of
international rugby. He does kick well but his place kicking
could be better.
Marcus seems to have the reputation of being a tricksy show
pony. But he is more than that. There is no-one else with his
creative passing and quick rugby brain. In these recent tests
not everything has come off but he has still been creating
opportunities.
Having him on the bench and available at 15,10 joining the back
line is an asset.
I don’t think Fin is a generational talent - yet and I don’t
think Marcus is a better 15 than 10.
I don’t understand Steward who seems slow and not particularly
great under kicks but they obviously like him.
#Post#: 144956--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fin Smith is the victim of England’s fly-half roulette
DIR By: The Absolute Quintet
Date: November 20, 2025, 11:20 am
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Surely Marcus isn't there just to provide full back cover with
Daly on the pitch. Another winger could have been selected at 23
(albeit options are suddenly a bit thin). Marcus is there first
and foremost as a playmaker who could and probably will cover 15
but also very helpfully 10 if needed. Another strong game and
he's nailed on for the six nations as a hugely influential 23.
Anything happens to Ford then Fin more than likely goes to 10.
#Post#: 144957--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fin Smith is the victim of England’s fly-half roulette
DIR By: Rugbycat
Date: November 20, 2025, 11:29 am
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All comes down to the 6/2 bench, and the fact that Ford has the
10 shirt if fit, Marcus can cover 15 as well and Fin can't, also
why Daley starts as he has the ability to cover 13.
As long as Ford is fit and in decent form, and Marcus is fit,
and we stay with a 6/2 rather than 5/3 nothing will change.
#Post#: 144958--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fin Smith is the victim of England’s fly-half roulette
DIR By: FrostAndFire
Date: November 20, 2025, 12:05 pm
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--- Quote from: The Absolute Quintet link ---
>
> Surely Marcus isn't there just to provide full back cover with
Daly on the pitch. Another winger could have been selected at 23
(albeit options are suddenly a bit thin). Marcus is there first
and foremost as a playmaker who could and probably will cover 15
but also very helpfully 10 if needed. Another strong game and
he's nailed on for the six nations as a hugely influential 23.
Anything happens to Ford then Fin more than likely goes to 10.
>
--- End Quote ---
Marcus covers 10 and 15. Daly can play wing, 15 or 13. That
gives a lot more flexibility than if you just have someone who
can play 10 on the bench. (At a pinch, Slade can cover a wing
position, too, although that would be far from ideal, and so can
Spencer.) That allows the 6-2 bench that Borthwick and most
coaches prefer right now.
#Post#: 144960--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fin Smith is the victim of England’s fly-half roulette
DIR By: The Absolute Quintet
Date: November 20, 2025, 12:12 pm
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--- Quote from: FrostAndFire link ---
>
> Marcus covers 10 and 15. Daly can play wing, 15 or 13. That
gives a lot more flexibility than if you just have someone who
can play 10 on the bench. (At a pinch, Slade can cover a wing
position, too, although that would be far from ideal, and so can
Spencer.) That allows the 6-2 bench that Borthwick and most
coaches prefer right now.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, completely. My point was simply to do with the article that
says he's there just to cover full back and he's just not.
#Post#: 144962--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fin Smith is the victim of England’s fly-half roulette
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: November 20, 2025, 1:47 pm
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This time last year the pundits and casual fans were raving
about Marcus. Fin played against Japan and looked decent - not
that hard.
Then Healey suggested, as he likes to look clever, that Marcus
can't bring others into the game and fin is better at leading a
backline. The other pundits and casual pick this up and it
becomes gospel.
Come 6 nations, borthwick decides to start fin at 10. Marcus
goes to fullback and all of a sudden the accepted narrative is
that fin is the better 10 and Marcus had to focus on 15 or 23.
People are very fickle and quick to trot out the latest accepted
narrative
#Post#: 144964--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fin Smith is the victim of England’s fly-half roulette
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: November 20, 2025, 3:00 pm
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--- Quote from: T-Bone link ---
>
> This time last year the pundits and casual fans were raving
about Marcus. Fin played against Japan and looked decent - not
that hard.
>
> Then Healey suggested, as he likes to look clever, that Marcus
can't bring others into the game and fin is better at leading a
backline. The other pundits and casual pick this up and it
becomes gospel.
>
> Come 6 nations, borthwick decides to start fin at 10. Marcus
goes to fullback and all of a sudden the accepted narrative is
that fin is the better 10 and Marcus had to focus on 15 or 23.
>
> People are very fickle and quick to trot out the latest
accepted narrative
>
--- End Quote ---
Be fair; loads of people of all "occupations" have suggested
that Marcus doesn't bring other people into the game. I'm not
saying I agree but it's not driven by a one-off comment from
Healey.
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