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#Post#: 144412--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: November 5, 2025, 1:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> Thompson wasn’t a schoolboy No 8. He was playing senior rugby
and Woodward’s team specifically asked him to convert. Tom
Youngs went from centre to hooker. Alfie Barbeary went the other
way. Adam Jones saw off two international tightheads while
playing loosehead for the first time in a decade.
>
> Jack Clifford was converted from 12 to back row in the
Academy, and was still fast enough to play 12 (and going back
further, James Forrester did for several games during a Glos
injury crisis). Tom Guest played a couple of games on the wing.
I used to work with Alex Woodhouse, who at the end of the
amateur era played every position from 6 to 15 for Rosslyn Park.
>
> In the pro era we’ve become a bit obsessed with the idea that
players only play one position, but the point is that that’s
only been seen as the norm for a relatively short part of
rugby’s history.
>
--- End Quote ---
Rugby players are rugby players.
Did Tom Guest ever start a professional match on the wing? Tom
Youngs converted from 12 to 2 and had to spend years essentially
learning how to play his position - and I don't think he ever
played 12 again. Hookers with the right build can indeed play
back row, but Barbeary isn't Bath's backup hooker, it's 8 or
nothing for a reason. And while it's difficult for a tighthead
to play loosehead to the same level, you're essentially arguing
that a prop playing prop is a hybrid player (which is consistent
with your back row playing back row line, anyway)
Everyone understands that positional specialists are not the
only types of player. This whole thing is about players who are
able to effectively play multiple positions with very different
skill requirements that usually require specialists with very
different athletic/physical abilities.
Like a back 5 forward who can genuinely play in the backline and
is up to the demands of the position beyond being big or fast.
Nadolo, Basteraud, Big Mo, Beattie... there are a few more over
the years but not many.
It's not the same as players moonlighting in a pinch, because
pretty much every back row can spend time in the backline
without being a total liability in an emergency. Extremely
different to being able to start matches in the other positions
and not be completely out of their depth, though.
Arguing about props swapping sides or back rowers swapping sides
or utility backs existing or players converting at the start of
their careers is just missing the point of the conversation
entirely.
#Post#: 144413--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: TankQuin
Date: November 5, 2025, 2:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
>
> Jack Clifford was converted from 12 to back row in the
Academy, and was still fast enough to play 12 (and going back
further, James Forrester did for several games during a Glos
injury crisis). Tom Guest played a couple of games on the wing.
I used to work with Alex Woodhouse, who at the end of the
amateur era played every position from 6 to 15 for Rosslyn Park.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
This is why we don't have a lot of decent 12s. All too often
players who could be a point of difference at 12 are moved to
the back-row early in their career or even at school and so only
develop strength skills. I'm almost certain that if Esterhuizen
had been brought up in England, he would be a blindside.
#Post#: 144414--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 5, 2025, 2:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Rugby players are rugby players.
>
> Did Tom Guest ever start a professional match on the wing? Tom
Youngs converted from 12 to 2 and had to spend years essentially
learning how to play his position - and I don't think he ever
played 12 again. Hookers with the right build can indeed play
back row, but Barbeary isn't Bath's backup hooker, it's 8 or
nothing for a reason. And while it's difficult for a tighthead
to play loosehead to the same level, you're essentially arguing
that a prop playing prop is a hybrid player (which is consistent
with your back row playing back row line, anyway)
>
> Everyone understands that positional specialists are not the
only types of player. This whole thing is about players who are
able to effectively play multiple positions with very different
skill requirements that usually require specialists with very
different athletic/physical abilities.
>
> Like a back 5 forward who can genuinely play in the backline
and is up to the demands of the position beyond being big or
fast.
>
> Nadolo, Basteraud, Big Mo, Beattie... there are a few more
over the years but not many.
>
> It's not the same as players moonlighting in a pinch, because
pretty much every back row can spend time in the backline
without being a total liability in an emergency. Extremely
different to being able to start matches in the other positions
and not be completely out of their depth, though.
>
> Arguing about props swapping sides or back rowers swapping
sides or utility backs existing or players converting at the
start of their careers is just missing the point of the
conversation entirely.
>
--- End Quote ---
Going back a few years, JPR Williams and Eric Rush both played
back row internationally, from being fullback/wing. But that was
a long time ago. And if course Lomu was occasionally put at
number 8 in some attacking scrums.
It makes sense that a player can cover other positions of
similarity, and also very different positions in an emergency.
But to start e.g. Earl at 12 suggests that the quality of 12s is
awful as there really is nobody other than a makeshift
available.
#Post#: 144415--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: Yareet
Date: November 5, 2025, 2:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> Going back a few years, JPR Williams and Eric Rush both played
back row internationally, from being fullback/wing. But that was
a long time ago. And if course Lomu was occasionally put at
number 8 in some attacking scrums.
>
> It makes sense that a player can cover other positions of
similarity, and also very different positions in an emergency.
But to start e.g. Earl at 12 suggests that the quality of 12s is
awful as there really is nobody other than a makeshift
available.
>
--- End Quote ---
SA must be short of decent back rows then. Why else would they
be forced to have Andre cover from the bench?
#Post#: 144418--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: poorfour
Date: November 5, 2025, 5:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
That may well be the issue with 12s - the big ones get converted
to back rows, the talented ones get shunted to 10 or 13 and the
smaller ones often don’t make it at all. IIRC, Marchant played
12 quite a but at U20 level, and Kerr was definitely a U20 12
but now seems to be considered primarily at 13.
Will Greenwood was not quite good enough to be a pro 10, too
gangly to be turned into a back row and so ended up as the most
successful 12 England ever had. Maybe academies should be
looking out for the players who don’t quite fit anywhere else
and making them 12s…
#Post#: 144419--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: November 5, 2025, 5:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> SA must be short of decent back rows then. Why else would they
be forced to have Andre cover from the bench?
>
--- End Quote ---
They aren't. They're just faffing about with what happens in the
last portion of a match because they (over) value bench
flexibility and impact. They're not starting Andre in the
forwards because they have a surfeit of superb back rows.
#Post#: 144420--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: November 5, 2025, 5:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> Going back a few years, JPR Williams and Eric Rush both played
back row internationally, from being fullback/wing. But that was
a long time ago. And if course Lomu was occasionally put at
number 8 in some attacking scrums.
>
> It makes sense that a player can cover other positions of
similarity, and also very different positions in an emergency.
But to start e.g. Earl at 12 suggests that the quality of 12s is
awful as there really is nobody other than a makeshift
available.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think in reality it suggests that Borthwick thinks that South
Africa are the closest team to England in terms of available
types of players and that they're very successful, so we should
do what they do. I would much rather a coach who was either
comfortable in who we are, or is able to actually innovate - not
just be a pale imitation of a much better setup with much better
players across the board.
Right now I'd be far more concerned about how we've ended up
with Steward as our 15 and Marcus as our backup, when we have
guys like Carpenter and Hendy (and Arundell) available, or how
we've somehow managed to mess around 3 very good 10s, or how
Dingwall went from being Mr Reliable to looking like a flapper
next to Ford, or what happens when a team is capable of dealing
with the aerial threat...
I'd expect France, Ireland, Scotland, South Africa to all
comfortably deal with our kicking game, and NZ are capable of it
but more vulnerable. What's Plan B? How are we planning on
creating opportunities with ball in hand? I hope we start to see
some answers here in the next few matches of the Blackett Era,
because it's unreasonable to expect us to have moved away from a
winning strategy during the Australia game, but I don't view the
kick-and-pressure game we have to be enough to win us titles.
All this noise about Earl and Pollock and whoever is just making
us look daft. SA can afford to mess around like this because
they're good enough to beat any team in the world with a normal
setup; we're very much putting the cart before the horse.
#Post#: 144423--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 5, 2025, 6:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> SA must be short of decent back rows then.
>
--- End Quote ---
[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]
Good one. Tell me another! Try to remember to put a smiley on,
as otherwise people might think you're being serious!
#Post#: 144424--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 5, 2025, 6:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> I think in reality it suggests that Borthwick thinks that
South Africa are the closest team to England in terms of
available types of players...
>
--- End Quote ---
Sadly, I think you're right. But it also shows he's deluded, as
that's almost as funny as Yareet's comment.
#Post#: 144432--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: Yareet
Date: November 5, 2025, 8:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]
>
> Good one. Tell me another! Try to remember to put a smiley on,
as otherwise people might think you're being serious!
>
--- End Quote ---
To be clear, there was a lot of sarcasm in my comment.
I thought people would realise that a Sale fan knows of a couple
of similar-looking SA back rowers who might do a job
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