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#Post#: 144400--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: Yareet
Date: November 4, 2025, 12:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: FrostAndFire link ---
>
> I think there's a difference between players moving more
fluidly to different positions on the field at certain points in
the game to completely replacing one position with another.
Forwards do often end up out on the wing for certain parts of
the game. But you wouldn't want to ditch your wingers and just
have forwards. Obviously there are some positions where players
move between more easily. Back three, often. 10 and 12. 12 and
13. Back row and locks. I think it would be a big mistake to go
beyond that without injury or bench options forcing it.
>
--- End Quote ---
It’s hardly new to have players who can flit between seemingly
completely different positions and it does seem that there is a
movement among some international coaches to see what is
possible.
Just because it’s not what we have seen before doesn’t make it
wrong and I wonder if we will have a generation of players who
do move between back row and centre.
Personally, I’d rather find out now rather than in a World Cup
semi-final when injury forces the change. Much as I said the
same in 2020 when Eddie replaced the injured Billy with Tom at
8. In hindsight, Eddie seemed to have the right idea but picked
the wrong player as Earl became the go-to 8 3 years later.
I also think it’s amusing that Rassie is seen by many as an
innovator for trying Andre on the flank but Borthwick is a fool
for trying Earl in the centre. It’s the same move in reverse.
#Post#: 144401--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: poorfour
Date: November 4, 2025, 1:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I remember a team from a few years back that had some hybrid
players:
- Jason Leonard preferref loosehead but played both sides of the
scrum equally well
- Steve Thompson was spotted by the coach as a No 8 and told to
convert to hooker. The lineout coach used to go round to his
house, set up a ladder and get him to throw his darts at a
target until he got it right
- Neil Back was a schoolboy scrum half and often went in at 9
when Dawson or Bracken were at the bottom of a ruck
- Lawrence Dallaglio played all three back row positions for
England
- Richard Hill played all three back row positions for England,
and spent most of his career playing on his less favoured flank
(while still being a strong contender for the best player in the
world in that position)
- Lewis Moody also played 6 and 7 for England, just not quite as
well as Hill
- Jonny Wilkinson played the early part of his test career at 12
(albeit as a result of a lack of confidence from the coach) and
finished his club career with an RWC semi-final fly half at
scrum half and an RWC finalist fly half at 12
- Mike Catt played every position from 10 to 15 for England,
including several of them in his two RWC Finals
- Austin Healey, IIRC, played every position from 9 to 15 for
England, just not quite as well as Catt
- Josh Lewsey and Jason Robinson both played wing and fullback.
They never amounted to much, mind. And since we're at it...
- Sarah Bern played 12 and 8 before converting to TH
- Zoe Stratford (nee Aldcroft) plays lock and 6 with equal
facility
- Sadia Kabeya plays both 6 and 7 (and scored one fewer try over
the tournament than Jorja Miller, off half the number of carries
while making twice the number of tackles)
- Maddie Feaunati plays across the back row
- Claudia Moloney-MacDonald plays 9 and wing
- Holly Aitchison plays 10 and 12
- Helena Rowland plays anywhere from 10 to 15
They didn't amount to much, either.
#Post#: 144402--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: Fursty
Date: November 4, 2025, 2:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Poorfour - you’re largely talking about back row players playing
across the back row or backs playing across the backline.
Interestingly you missed out Bergamasco playing 9 - perhaps
because it wouldn’t have strengthened your case :)
#Post#: 144403--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: November 4, 2025, 2:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Rugbycat link ---
>
> Fullback is a jinxed position for England with Furbank being
constantly injured and Carpenter also now injured.
>
> Is Arundell a fullback, Bath seem to consider him a wing, he
has surprised me since coming back from France, but at
international level at fullback who knows, the only answer is to
try him and see.
>
> And now may be the time.
>
>
HTML https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/c0rp4vdqwkpo
>
--- End Quote ---
Arundell was primarily a fullback for Irish. Played more on the
wing in France.
#Post#: 144404--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: November 4, 2025, 2:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> I remember a team from a few years back that had some hybrid
players:
> - Jason Leonard preferref loosehead but played both sides of
the scrum equally well
> - Steve Thompson was spotted by the coach as a No 8 and told
to convert to hooker. The lineout coach used to go round to his
house, set up a ladder and get him to throw his darts at a
target until he got it right
> - Neil Back was a schoolboy scrum half and often went in at 9
when Dawson or Bracken were at the bottom of a ruck
> - Lawrence Dallaglio played all three back row positions for
England
> - Richard Hill played all three back row positions for
England, and spent most of his career playing on his less
favoured flank (while still being a strong contender for the
best player in the world in that position)
> - Lewis Moody also played 6 and 7 for England, just not quite
as well as Hill
> - Jonny Wilkinson played the early part of his test career at
12 (albeit as a result of a lack of confidence from the coach)
and finished his club career with an RWC semi-final fly half at
scrum half and an RWC finalist fly half at 12
> - Mike Catt played every position from 10 to 15 for England,
including several of them in his two RWC Finals
> - Austin Healey, IIRC, played every position from 9 to 15 for
England, just not quite as well as Catt
> - Josh Lewsey and Jason Robinson both played wing and
fullback.
>
> They never amounted to much, mind. And since we're at it...
>
> - Sarah Bern played 12 and 8 before converting to TH
> - Zoe Stratford (nee Aldcroft) plays lock and 6 with equal
facility
> - Sadia Kabeya plays both 6 and 7 (and scored one fewer try
over the tournament than Jorja Miller, off half the number of
carries while making twice the number of tackles)
> - Maddie Feaunati plays across the back row
> - Claudia Moloney-MacDonald plays 9 and wing
> - Holly Aitchison plays 10 and 12
> - Helena Rowland plays anywhere from 10 to 15
>
> They didn't amount to much, either.
>
--- End Quote ---
This is very silly. A prop from the amateur era playing both
sides is not a hybrid. A back row playing across the back row is
not a hybrid. A hooker who played other positions at school is
not a hybrid. A 10 shoehorned in at 12 is not a hybrid. And the
existence of utility backs predates the hybrid conversation by a
few decades.
Essentially it's about players who are able to play two very
different roles requiring very different skill sets and athletic
demands, almost always a forward in the backs or vice versa.
They do exist but they are vanishingly rare and the ones who are
actually good enough to start professional matches (let alone
internationals) in either position are practically unicorns.
#Post#: 144405--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 4, 2025, 2:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Fursty link ---
>
>
> Interestingly you missed out Bergamasco playing 9 - perhaps
because it wouldn’t have strengthened your case :)
>
--- End Quote ---
He also played wing, very well.
#Post#: 144406--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 4, 2025, 2:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
>
> I also think it’s amusing that Rassie is seen by many as an
innovator for trying Andre on the flank but Borthwick is a fool
for trying Earl in the centre. It’s the same move in reverse.
>
--- End Quote ---
Rassie IS an innovator. Others are a pale imitation 🙂
#Post#: 144407--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 4, 2025, 3:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> I remember a team from a few years back that had some hybrid
players:
> - Jason Leonard preferref loosehead but played both sides of
the scrum equally well
> - Steve Thompson was spotted by the coach as a No 8 and told
to convert to hooker. The lineout coach used to go round to his
house, set up a ladder and get him to throw his darts at a
target until he got it right
> - Neil Back was a schoolboy scrum half and often went in at 9
when Dawson or Bracken were at the bottom of a ruck
> - Lawrence Dallaglio played all three back row positions for
England
> - Richard Hill played all three back row positions for
England, and spent most of his career playing on his less
favoured flank (while still being a strong contender for the
best player in the world in that position)
> - Lewis Moody also played 6 and 7 for England, just not quite
as well as Hill
> - Jonny Wilkinson played the early part of his test career at
12 (albeit as a result of a lack of confidence from the coach)
and finished his club career with an RWC semi-final fly half at
scrum half and an RWC finalist fly half at 12
> - Mike Catt played every position from 10 to 15 for England,
including several of them in his two RWC Finals
> - Austin Healey, IIRC, played every position from 9 to 15 for
England, just not quite as well as Catt
> - Josh Lewsey and Jason Robinson both played wing and
fullback.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Lawrence Dallaglio used to get put on the wing at the start of
his Wasps career. Tom Young's started at centre then became a
hooker.
Malcolm Marx started as a number 8 and is possibly the world's
best hooker. Pierre Spies was a very good winger who became an
even better number 8. And if course Deon Fourie is a back row
who played most of the World Cup final as hooker.
There are countless more examples but many were from either
necessity during a game, or a natural transition of sorts.
Simply trying to cram someone in doesn't make much sense.
#Post#: 144409--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: poorfour
Date: November 4, 2025, 4:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> A hooker who played other positions at school is not a hybrid.
A 10 shoehorned in at 12 is not a hybrid. And the existence of
utility backs predates the hybrid conversation by a few decades.
>
> Essentially it's about players who are able to play two very
different roles requiring very different skill sets and athletic
demands, almost always a forward in the backs or vice versa.
They do exist but they are vanishingly rare and the ones who are
actually good enough to start professional matches (let alone
internationals) in either position are practically unicorns.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thompson wasn’t a schoolboy No 8. He was playing senior rugby
and Woodward’s team specifically asked him to convert. Tom
Youngs went from centre to hooker. Alfie Barbeary went the other
way. Adam Jones saw off two international tightheads while
playing loosehead for the first time in a decade.
Jack Clifford was converted from 12 to back row in the Academy,
and was still fast enough to play 12 (and going back further,
James Forrester did for several games during a Glos injury
crisis). Tom Guest played a couple of games on the wing. I used
to work with Alex Woodhouse, who at the end of the amateur era
played every position from 6 to 15 for Rosslyn Park.
In the pro era we’ve become a bit obsessed with the idea that
players only play one position, but the point is that that’s
only been seen as the norm for a relatively short part of
rugby’s history.
#Post#: 144411--------------------------------------------------
Re: OT England v Australia
DIR By: Quinten Poulsen
Date: November 4, 2025, 5:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thompson was converted to hooker while in their academy by
Saints coaches. Clifford was already a back rower when he turned
professional at age 18, so if he was converted it was when he
was in the EPDG at school level.
Anyway, that still doesn't make them hybrid players. It's closer
to the old "Matt Hopper played at 10 for a couple of minutes
when a squirrel was yellow carded" argument.
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