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#Post#: 144269--------------------------------------------------
Re: England in danger of wasting a maverick talent in Marcus
Smith
DIR By: Quinky
Date: October 31, 2025, 2:44 am
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I don't have much knowledge of other clubs' players, other than
those who are majorly in the limelight, such as Farrell, Manu,
Itoje etc. Hence I tend not to downplay them other than when I
see them in a game - usually against Quins. There are a few that
catch my eye with consistent strong performances - Myles Reid at
Bath springs to mind - but with some players I just don't get
the hype - Fin Smith being an example. That's not to say he's
not a good player, just that I think he's overrated based on
what I've seen. There's also the obvious bias that I prefer
Marcus as a player.
What I don't understand is the amount of negativity levelled at
Marcus, and to a lesser extent against Quins in general. Those
who criticise Marcus seem so vitriolic, and blinkered. Yet I
imagine the same people would be lavishing praise if he were in
their team.
#Post#: 144270--------------------------------------------------
Re: England in danger of wasting a maverick talent in Marcus
Smith
DIR By: BedfordshireBoy
Date: October 31, 2025, 3:48 am
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Negativity against Quins has always been so, par for the course.
Negativity against Marcus is I suggest borne out of ignorance
mainly by people influenced by the media and from hardly seeing
him play. Strange that somebody that who can change a game by
his speed and sidestep is somehow seen as showboating and not
being a team player-although of course he cannot tackle or
kick!!!
#Post#: 144271--------------------------------------------------
Re: England in danger of wasting a maverick talent in Marcus
Smith
DIR By: Rugbycat
Date: October 31, 2025, 4:19 am
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> I think his form was excellent on tour and pre Ikitau for
Exeter. He genuinely has been good. The trouble for England is
that he usually is either making game losing defensive errors or
his attacking game goes to pot with a high error count. The
latter is very strange for such a classy player and the former
probably wasn't helped by the kamikaze defence England tried to
use for so long
>
--- End Quote ---
For someone who is touted as a defensive leader his jumping out
of the line early in international matches is really strange, it
was more obvious in the kamikaze blitz defence but it is a
constant fault.
He only played the first game on tour as he broke his hand in
the first half of the game and played the rest of the game with
it.
#Post#: 144272--------------------------------------------------
Re: England in danger of wasting a maverick talent in Marcus
Smith
DIR By: SaracenM
Date: October 31, 2025, 4:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Saracens supporter sticking my head above the parapet with some
trepidation.
For me England have it right with the current choice of 10s. We
are also very lucky to have a 10 of Marcus Smiths quality as an
additional option.
I think the example of Russell above is the one that should
encourage Marcus Smith and Quins supporters. I believe that is
the sort of player he could become. Genuinely world class.
I think two things work slightly against him in terms of
England.
The first is the lack of Quins players in the XV/23, you can
argue about the merits of that but the reality is playing in an
England team with more Quins would certainly help him as his
instinctive play is sometimes an issue for players unfamiliar
with him.
The second is that for me he lacks the all round game of the
other two. That's obviously opinion not fact.
Whilst I can marvel at his performance against us a few weeks
ago in a very strong team performance I only have to look to a
week later for game in which he looked uninterested and
struggled.
Had he backed up that Saracens performance I think Id have felt
that more confident that he was heading in the right direction.
Good luck to him and you for the rest of the season and the
reality remains that he's a quality and would be a good option
for England.
#Post#: 144273--------------------------------------------------
Re: England in danger of wasting a maverick talent in Marcus
Smith
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: October 31, 2025, 4:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> I think that’s possibly true of every club.
>
> Harding is quite possibly no less known outside Bristol than
WEv or Tyrone are outside Quins.
>
> And exactly the same could have been said of Sale fans’ wish
to get Sam James or the du Preez twins more international
recognition.
>
--- End Quote ---
Green has provided some spectacular moments in very high profile
games, he's a household name in the league and was mentioned
fairly often in the press regarding his impending EQP status.
WEv is one of the best turnover specialists in Europe so is a
bit more high profile than most. When you dominate on the floor
against the very best European sides then people tend to know
who you are and what you can do.
Most of our excellent sub international players do get looked at
eventually anyway - Beard, Northmore, etc
#Post#: 144275--------------------------------------------------
Re: England in danger of wasting a maverick talent in Marcus
Smith
DIR By: Rugbycat
Date: October 31, 2025, 5:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: SaracenM link ---
>
> Saracens supporter sticking my head above the parapet with
some trepidation.
>
> For me England have it right with the current choice of 10s.
We are also very lucky to have a 10 of Marcus Smiths quality as
an additional option.
>
> I think the example of Russell above is the one that should
encourage Marcus Smith and Quins supporters. I believe that is
the sort of player he could become. Genuinely world class.
>
> I think two things work slightly against him in terms of
England.
> The first is the lack of Quins players in the XV/23, you can
argue about the merits of that but the reality is playing in an
England team with more Quins would certainly help him as his
instinctive play is sometimes an issue for players unfamiliar
with him.
> The second is that for me he lacks the all round game of the
other two. That's obviously opinion not fact.
> Whilst I can marvel at his performance against us a few weeks
ago in a very strong team performance I only have to look to a
week later for game in which he looked uninterested and
struggled.
> Had he backed up that Saracens performance I think Id have
felt that more confident that he was heading in the right
direction.
>
> Good luck to him and you for the rest of the season and the
reality remains that he's a quality and would be a good option
for England.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think that my own issue is that F Smith and Ford are more
similar than different, and that Marcus offers a point of
difference, his playing style is to exploit any gaps in the
defensive line, and i really don't believe you need to be a
Harlequins player to run supporting lines based on that.
Your description would have fitted Danny Cipriani better,
Russell has really had very few others competing for the 10
shirt for Scotland and that has allowed him to develop at
international level.
If on Saturday you need to change the game, is the introduction
of Fin Smith really going to be game changing, or is he there as
an insurance against Ford playing as badly as he did in last
years AI's, having three very good 10's is turning more into a
curse than blessing for England.
By all means start with one of the others, but having a player
able to exploit space in the last 20 seems like a good idea, and
who also covers the backline better in case of injury with a 6-2
bench.
#Post#: 144277--------------------------------------------------
Re: England in danger of wasting a maverick talent in Marcus
Smith
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: October 31, 2025, 5:50 am
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I don't think Marcus ever looks uninterested. He tries to do too
much when things aren't going well, he doesn't hide and he
doesn't abdicate responsibility. He made bad mistakes and spent
most of the game in a bad mood.
Also I'm surprised a Saracens fan didn't notice just how bad
Ford played against them...
#Post#: 144278--------------------------------------------------
Re: England in danger of wasting a maverick talent in Marcus
Smith
DIR By: poorfour
Date: October 31, 2025, 5:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: SaracenM link ---
>
> The second is that for me he lacks the all round game of the
other two. That's obviously opinion not fact.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well, it's an opinion. RugbyPass has a pretty good stats page
these days, so I checked:
HTML https://www.rugbypass.com/players/marcus-smith/
HTML https://www.rugbypass.com/players/george-ford/
HTML https://www.rugbypass.com/players/finlay-smith/
The best bet is to scroll down to the Season Performance section
and make sure Gallagher Premiership 2024/25 is selected for each
of them. The differences are interesting. There's little to
choose betweeen the three of them in terms of passing accuracy
or kicks made (though Ford is much more skewed towards
penalties) and the "kicks in play" tells you very little except
that Ford kicks more than Marcus who kicks more than Fin.
Fin tackles more than the others - but the success rates are
similar (in the low 70%s) and interestingly he makes
proportionately fewer dominant tackles. Fin gives away slightly
more pens, but that's probably a result of being stuck at the
bottom of more rucks.
The one set of stats where one player is markedly better than
the other two is carrying. Marcus carries more, makes more
metres, beats more defenders (and does more of each per carry).
He made almost as many post contact metres as Fin made metres in
total, and both of them have massively higher carrying stats
than Ford.
So I don't think the numbers bear out the idea that Marcus
doesn't have a well rounded game. If anything, it's Ford who has
the least rounded game statistically.
#Post#: 144279--------------------------------------------------
Re: England in danger of wasting a maverick talent in Marcus
Smith
DIR By: FrostAndFire
Date: October 31, 2025, 6:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
England decided, quite openly, to borrow Saints' attacking
structure wholesale (not a terrible decision as they didn't have
an attack coach who could come up with his own system). As a
result, Saints players (many of whom are definite quality) are
strongly represented in the backs. This gives Fin Smith a big
advantage, even though I don't believe he is 'better' than Ford
or Marcus Smith. He plays with those players all the time, and
plays the same moves with them.
Which is why it's a bit strange that he's on the bench while
Ford is starting alongside the Saints 9, 12 and 13.
#Post#: 144281--------------------------------------------------
Re: England in danger of wasting a maverick talent in Marcus
Smith
DIR By: never sleep
Date: October 31, 2025, 6:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> Well, it's an opinion. RugbyPass has a pretty good stats page
these days, so I checked:
>
HTML https://www.rugbypass.com/players/marcus-smith/
>
HTML https://www.rugbypass.com/players/george-ford/
>
HTML https://www.rugbypass.com/players/finlay-smith/
>
> The best bet is to scroll down to the Season Performance
section and make sure Gallagher Premiership 2024/25 is selected
for each of them. The differences are interesting. There's
little to choose betweeen the three of them in terms of passing
accuracy or kicks made (though Ford is much more skewed towards
penalties) and the "kicks in play" tells you very little except
that Ford kicks more than Marcus who kicks more than Fin.
>
> Fin tackles more than the others - but the success rates are
similar (in the low 70%s) and interestingly he makes
proportionately fewer dominant tackles. Fin gives away slightly
more pens, but that's probably a result of being stuck at the
bottom of more rucks.
>
> The one set of stats where one player is markedly better than
the other two is carrying. Marcus carries more, makes more
metres, beats more defenders (and does more of each per carry).
He made almost as many post contact metres as Fin made metres in
total, and both of them have massively higher carrying stats
than Ford.
>
> So I don't think the numbers bear out the idea that Marcus
doesn't have a well rounded game. If anything, it's Ford who has
the least rounded game statistically.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yareet once earned a yellow card for using evidence to back up
an argument.
Lets not see any more yellow cards.
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