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       #Post#: 143790--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Tom Willis off to France again
   DIR By: RodneyRegis
       Date: October 19, 2025, 12:12 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: QuincyJones link ---
       >
       > This "potential" has been thrown around season after season.
       Still haemorrhages massive sums in the name of equality, but hey
       if we keep throwing good money after bad maybe it'll eventually
       lose £10m a year instead of £12m.
       >
       > The women's game had the opportunity to learn from pro men's
       rugby's mistakes but it seems intent on copying all of them.
       With a less appealing sport than men's rugby, it'll likely end
       up in a worse position.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       What, you mean filling stadia by paying millions and millions
       for marketing isn't a sustainable business model?
       #Post#: 143791--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Tom Willis off to France again
   DIR By: Rugbycat
       Date: October 19, 2025, 12:16 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: QuincyJones link ---
       >
       > Don't dispute any of that, DOK.
       >
       > I'm referring to men's rugby as a whole, including
       internationals. Plenty of clubs lose money year on year but
       that's more due to mismanagement and trying to keep up with the
       Joneses in terms of salaries etc. in order to compete in
       European competitions and so on. The fact remains that men's
       rugby went professional for a reason and there was money to be
       made. The interest was there, no shortage of owners willing to
       put money into the men's game and the RFU were making vast sums
       off the back of international fixtures.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       But no club is profitable in the prem at present, rugby had been
       to all intents professional in the southern hemisphere long
       before 1995, which is why the game went professional overnight.
       Rugby as a whole includes the women’s game, women are part of
       society last time I checked and quite a few attend men’s games.
       Your view on professionalism and profit appears to change like
       the wind.
       #Post#: 143792--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Tom Willis off to France again
   DIR By: FrostAndFire
       Date: October 19, 2025, 12:24 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: QuincyJones link ---
       >
       > Don't dispute any of that, DOK.
       >
       > I'm referring to men's rugby as a whole, including
       internationals. Plenty of clubs lose money year on year but
       that's more due to mismanagement and trying to keep up with the
       Joneses in terms of salaries etc. in order to compete in
       European competitions and so on. The fact remains that men's
       rugby went professional for a reason and there was money to be
       made. The interest was there, no shortage of owners willing to
       put money into the men's game and the RFU were making vast sums
       off the back of international fixtures.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       That's incoherent. You're arguing men's rugby as a whole is
       profitable, but you ignore the vast amounts lost each year,
       which is only operable because a few very rich men enjoy having
       a toy to spend their fortunes on. None of this is profitable.
       You just have people who are willing to take the losses. Arguing
       that the women's game has to make a profit is absurd.
       #Post#: 143793--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Tom Willis off to France again
   DIR By: QuincyJones
       Date: October 19, 2025, 12:27 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: RodneyRegis link ---
       >
       > What, you mean filling stadia by paying millions and millions
       for marketing isn't a sustainable business model?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Depends how much the tickets are!
       #Post#: 143795--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Tom Willis off to France again
   DIR By: QuincyJones
       Date: October 19, 2025, 12:32 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Rugbycat link ---
       >
       > But no club is profitable in the prem at present, rugby had
       been to all intents professional in the southern hemisphere long
       before 1995, which is why the game went professional overnight.
       > Rugby as a whole includes the women’s game, women are part of
       society last time I checked and quite a few attend men’s games.
       > Your view on professionalism and profit appears to change like
       the wind.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I don't recall denying women being a part of society or rugby.
       Rugby is absolutely for everyone. Professional rugby is not. In
       the same way it's not for level 5 men's rugby.
       #Post#: 143796--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Tom Willis off to France again
   DIR By: QuincyJones
       Date: October 19, 2025, 12:44 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: FrostAndFire link ---
       >
       > That's incoherent. You're arguing men's rugby as a whole is
       profitable, but you ignore the vast amounts lost each year,
       which is only operable because a few very rich men enjoy having
       a toy to spend their fortunes on. None of this is profitable.
       You just have people who are willing to take the losses. Arguing
       that the women's game has to make a profit is absurd.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Apart from the bit where I said "plenty of clubs lose money year
       on year".....sure, I ignored it..?!
       I haven't argued the women's game needs to make a profit - my
       argument is that it needs to generate far more money than it
       does. It's all the people bleating on about how women's rugby is
       the most amazing investment opportunity since Amazon that talk
       about all the profit it will make.
       International men's rugby is (very) profitable in the UK. Club
       rugby isn't, but as you say has enough wealthy owners who want
       to back it. The women's game just leeches further off the back
       of this. This is why the door is still open for R360 on the
       women's side of things, because clubs and unions don't mind the
       idea of someone else paying for the women.
       But if you look at international rugby in isolation... Men's =
       hugely profitable
       Women's = money pit
       #Post#: 143797--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Tom Willis off to France again
   DIR By: Rugbycat
       Date: October 19, 2025, 12:52 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: QuincyJones link ---
       >
       > I don't recall denying women being a part of society or rugby.
       Rugby is absolutely for everyone. Professional rugby is not. In
       the same way it's not for level 5 men's rugby.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       You need to look at what you are saying, the RFU administers
       English rugby which includes women’s rugby, most of rugby leaks
       money outside at present the men’s England team, the women’s
       team is predicted to make a profit by 2030.
       Again your above if taken literally means there should be no
       professional men’s clubs as at present every prem club is in the
       red.
       You can’t separate different strands of rugby schools,
       grassroots and women’s and elite and pretend they don’t affect
       each other and the men’s national team.
       Growing the women’s game will benefit every part of the game and
       will be self financing, just saying that we should not invest in
       it and instead pay the money to a player who obviously values
       financial gain over playing for England seems morally suspect.
       A final question why is it acceptable for men’s prem clubs to
       run at a loss and not for the Women’s national team to run at a
       loss for a few years, and the statement that professional rugby
       is not for women, why?.
       #Post#: 143798--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Tom Willis off to France again
   DIR By: T-Bone
       Date: October 19, 2025, 12:53 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I heard Coventry's chairman speak before their game yesterday.
       He certainly doesn't think the RFU are trying to do their best
       for the whole game
       #Post#: 143800--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Tom Willis off to France again
   DIR By: Rugbycat
       Date: October 19, 2025, 1:13 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: T-Bone link ---
       >
       > I heard Coventry's chairman speak before their game yesterday.
       He certainly doesn't think the RFU are trying to do their best
       for the whole game
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I assume it is the same argument that he has been using since
       Covid around the prem clubs getting too much and the champ clubs
       not enough and about the 10001 capacity for promotion.
       He has linked it to the other 1500 clubs in England also not
       receiving enough support, he lost the argument effectively in
       the vote at the RFU.
       #Post#: 143801--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Tom Willis off to France again
   DIR By: RodneyRegis
       Date: October 19, 2025, 1:17 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Rugbycat link ---
       >
       >
       > Again your above if taken literally means there should be no
       professional men’s clubs as at present every prem club is in the
       red.
       >
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       You keep saying that. It's not correct.
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