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#Post#: 141748--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another Argentine
DIR By: FatQuin
Date: September 1, 2025, 12:02 pm
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--- Quote from: Brown Bottle link ---
>
> How many of them were actually available?
>
--- End Quote ---
I have no idea. I’m not a scout or an agent. That doesn’t make
my point that we really need another 12 any less valid however
so I’m not sure what other exam questions you want to set me but
it won’t change what most of us accept is true and the club have
had a very long time to sort it out.
#Post#: 141749--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another Argentine
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: September 1, 2025, 12:09 pm
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--- Quote from: FatQuin link ---
>
> I have no idea. I’m not a scout or an agent. That doesn’t
make my point that we really need another 12 any less valid
however so I’m not sure what other exam questions you want to
set me but it won’t change what most of us accept is true and
the club have had a very long time to sort it out.
>
--- End Quote ---
Just pointing out that posting "We could just buy a 12." is very
easy and involves virtually no thought, insight or knowledge at
all.
#Post#: 141752--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another Argentine
DIR By: FatQuin
Date: September 1, 2025, 2:36 pm
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--- Quote from: Brown Bottle link ---
>
> Just pointing out that posting "We could just buy a 12." is
very easy and involves virtually no thought, insight or
knowledge at all.
>
--- End Quote ---
Why not just ignore my post if it’s of so little value to the
discussion? Was a passing comment and really not particularly
controversial. I’m sorry you were triggered by it.
#Post#: 141753--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another Argentine
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: September 1, 2025, 3:02 pm
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--- Quote from: FatQuin link ---
>
> Why not just ignore my post if it’s of so little value to the
discussion? Was a passing comment and really not particularly
controversial. I’m sorry you were triggered by it.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yeah, fair enough. Probably just a bit grumpy at the time.
Sorry.👍
#Post#: 141754--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another Argentine
DIR By: Rugbycat
Date: September 1, 2025, 3:56 pm
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I wonder how close we are to the wage cap, a 12 to actually be
better than what we have behind our young but promising starter
already would not be cheap, so unless we can find someone in the
champ, do we have many options.
Yes I agree we should have worked this out a long time ago, and
playing our number 8 there is not funny.
On the bright side we are not a Welsh region.
#Post#: 141755--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another Argentine
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: September 1, 2025, 5:06 pm
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--- Quote from: MaidstoneQuin link ---
> Whilst not his fault i wouldn’t like to see the games win %
with Luke at 12.
--- End Quote ---
23/24 - 4 starts at 12, 2 wins, 2 losses, 50% win rate
24/25 - 10 starts at 12, 2 wins, 1 draw, 7 losses, 20% win
rate (3 starts at 13, 1 win)
Howeverrrrrr it's not quite as straightforward as it looks:
Northmore at 13: played 3, 1 win, 2 losses
Without Northmore at all: played 8, won 6, lost 2
Northmore on the bench: played 2, won 1, lost 1
Sides we lost to when Northmore started at 12:
Bath(H), Bristol(H), Toulon(A), Bath(A), Sale(H), Tigers(A),
Bristol(A)
Plus the draw with Tigers(H)
so basically the entire top 4 last season plus Toulon away - all
teams better than us by a distance anyway, so it's difficult to
judge the stats with and without him (don't think he was the
reason why we lost that home match against Bath example - he was
excellent, really carried very well and had huge impact; he was
also one of the few highlights in the away game against them
too)
As a 12 he does break tackles, does carry pretty often, does
carry hard and for a lot of metres. Wins the occasional
turnover. Scores a decent number of tries (4 from those 10
starts). Does often miss too many tackles and doesn't offload as
much as you'd like.
I've seen a lot worse from actual Quins 12s over the years. I'd
rather see him at 13 and I definitely think we should be trying
to make the most of Waghorn, who doesn't have as many strings to
his bow but frees up everyone else and is definitely a serious
heavy hitter in midfield, even showing up well in defence
against Leinster. I just don't think Northmore has done a
terrible job.
#Post#: 141758--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another Argentine
DIR By: Quinky
Date: September 2, 2025, 1:50 am
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As with everything, there are multiple factors involved and it's
rarely down to just one player. As JG mentions above, it's not
as straightforward as it looks.
I'm a great believer that you can't just parachute player X in
and fix everything. It's more about combinations. Rugby is a
team game, and one player - as good as he may be - won't change
things alone. Looking at our Prem winning teams, there were some
very good individuals, but many less than stellar names. What we
did have was great combinations. Lowe and JTH were very good
players, but nobody would say they were the best centres in the
Prem (well, I would :) ) However as a pairing they were
phenomenal, and with DC and Nev at half back, everything just
clicked. Tom Williams never won a senior cap, but I'd honestly
have picked him over any other winger - even Ugo - because his
skillset and his ability to combine with other players was
beyond excellent. In the engine room, Robson wasn't world class,
and Kohn's one cap belied his abilities, but as a unit they just
worked brilliantly. And let's not mention our history of
under-capped back rows. This is why I'm always loathe to blame
just a prop for scrum woes.
Back to the 12 issue - it's not just a case of putting a world
class 12 in there. It worked with Andre, but not with Roberts.
It can be affected by the service from the halfbacks, the
support play, the style of game we're playing, and the
opposition. In Luke's case, IIRC he had a fairly disjointed
season with injuries and being shifted around. I was surprised
he made the England tour, but he played well when he got there.
Sticking with Waghorn isn't such a bad idea. He's young, he's
been around the squad a long time and he has a lot of raw
talent. He's shown up well when called upon and is likely to
keep improving. But he does need backup to share the workload
and cover the inevitable injuries.
We have a nucleus of young players who will continue to grow
together, and there are shades of 2012 IMO. Let's hope so.
#Post#: 141759--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another Argentine
DIR By: poorfour
Date: September 2, 2025, 2:56 am
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Agree with all the above, except for two things:
I genuinely believe that if Lowe's career hadn't coincided with
that of one M Tuilagi Esq, or even if it hadn't been cut short
by that awful dump tackle, we'd have seen a lot more of him at
England level. He displaced a current Argentine international in
the Quins squad as a teenager fresh out of the academy, and if
he'd still been playing when Manu began his run of injuries I
think he could well have overtaken JJ. That said, successive
England coaches undervalued Nacho, so what do I know.
The other point is that I'd not describe Waghorn as a raw talent
- quite the opposite. What struck me about his performances last
year was his maturity, especially compared to peers like Beard
and Benson who had to learn not to try to do it all themselves
to become effective members of the team. Waghorn isn't flash,
but he consistently fixes the defence, takes the ball to the
line and distributes - all of which makes it easier for the
players around him to strut their stuff. I imagine that as he
matures physically and gets a bit wilier in contact, we'll see
more line breaks, but for now he is doing a good job enabling
the players around him.
#Post#: 141760--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another Argentine
DIR By: FatQuin
Date: September 2, 2025, 2:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Brown Bottle link ---
>
> Yeah, fair enough. Probably just a bit grumpy at the time.
Sorry.👍
>
--- End Quote ---
Good on ya. I have my moments too. COYQ!
#Post#: 141762--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another Argentine
DIR By: Twickersman
Date: September 2, 2025, 5:41 am
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I can see Waghorn and Sean Kerr sharing the bulk of the
responsibility at 12. Both can play 13, too, but I see both of
them as long-term 12s. Kerr is not quite as big as Waghorn and
is certainly no Andre Esterhauzen, but he is a silky runner, a
great distributor and an excellent kicker.
Both are relatively young, but both are very talented and
ex-England U20 centre partners.
I agree that we need one more player; otherwise, we will see
Jarrod Evans at 12 or Northmore, which is not ideal.
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