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#Post#: 137766--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lions Squad Announcement Live Thursday 8/5/25 14:00
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: May 9, 2025, 9:36 am
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--- Quote from: KentQuin link ---
>
> Ireland rightly have the most players in the squad. They've
easily been the strongest and most consistent of the home
nations over the last four year cycle.
>
> How many of the 15 picked are eveb debatable? To my mind its
only Kelleher, Hansen, McCarthy and Ryan where it's a marginal
call. The others are all shoo in's for the squad.
>
--- End Quote ---
Based on what though, your gut feel that minus those 4 players,
the Irish are the best players in their positions so should be
there? You can't look at it over 4 years either as Ireland have
declined over that period. They were brilliant from 2021-early
2023 but have been on the way down since. Unless you have a way
of measuring players against each other it will only ever be gut
feel and coaches preference.
Looking at it with quartered lenses on, 2013 is the best
example. Should Robshaw, Care & Brown have gone to Australia?
Yes they should because they were clearly in the top 2 in their
positions (in Brown's case, probably 1st) on what counts.
Tackles, turnovers, metres made, post contact metres etc. They
lost one game in Cardiff and that was used as justification for
not including them. I'm sure every team has a similar story.
Wales also lost all 4 Autumn Internationals at the end of 2012.
England won 2.
If you can look at a Lions squad and be happy that it is the
best of Britain & Ireland against the oppo, then fine but I
don't think you can make that judgement off of gut feel or a
coaches opinion and it be fair to players who already suffer
from not making international coaches boxes tick. Ask Tom Willis
if he's content that after a league and european double last
season, a probable league win this season and reaching the same
stage as Leinster, if he's content?
2009 had a neutral coach and a really well balanced squad and
mix of coaches and, yes, they lost but it felt that there were
no massive grumbles and less vitriol about players picked.
#Post#: 137767--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lions Squad Announcement Live Thursday 8/5/25 14:00
DIR By: A222Quin
Date: May 9, 2025, 9:40 am
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2009 was probably the last tour before social media like Twitter
and so on took any great influence on life. Geech was always
viewed much more as a unifying figure too.
#Post#: 137768--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lions Squad Announcement Live Thursday 8/5/25 14:00
DIR By: Rugbycat
Date: May 9, 2025, 9:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> He was never an inside centre. He was a 13 for Wasps who had
played a bit of 15. Eddie made him a winger and that was the
best we ever saw of him.
>
> "Always played well for England" is a bit odd. Post 2019
things started to go wrong. He had some pretty high profile
howlers, was genuinely a liability for a while before he got
dropped last time, and of course there's the red card against
Argentina...
>
--- End Quote ---
slip of the finger I meant outside centre, which I still believe
is his best position, Jones was and is a idiot with switching
people’s positions, tried the same making a outside centre into
a wing with Joe Marchant.
Players make mistakes and the high tackle issue was nothing like
Owen Farrell and at least Daly wraps in tackles, but I still
value Farrell’s commitment and contribution to England.
#Post#: 137769--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lions Squad Announcement Live Thursday 8/5/25 14:00
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: May 9, 2025, 10:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Rugbycat link ---
>
> slip of the finger I meant outside centre, which I still
believe is his best position, Jones was and is a idiot with
switching people’s positions, tried the same making a outside
centre into a wing with Joe Marchant.
> Players make mistakes and the high tackle issue was nothing
like Owen Farrell and at least Daly wraps in tackles, but I
still value Farrell’s commitment and contribution to England.
>
--- End Quote ---
Jones might be an idiot but Daly's move to wing was the making
of him.
Anyway, he had an extended period of being horrible in defence
and making a lot of errors while also seemingly losing his pace.
I was pleasantly surprised by his performances on recall in the
6N but am still shocked he was picked
#Post#: 137771--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lions Squad Announcement Live Thursday 8/5/25 14:00
DIR By: KentQuin
Date: May 9, 2025, 10:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Banstead Quin link ---
>
> Based on what though, your gut feel that minus those 4
players, the Irish are the best players in their positions so
should be there? You can't look at it over 4 years either as
Ireland have declined over that period. They were brilliant from
2021-early 2023 but have been on the way down since. Unless you
have a way of measuring players against each other it will only
ever be gut feel and coaches preference.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, pretty much. There seems to be consesus here that there is
no perfect formula for selection. So my gut/view seems as good
any :-)
Ireland aren't quite at the same level they were, but they're
still easily the most complete side of the four home nations.
Form shouldn't be ignored, but I do veer to the old adage that
form is temporary and class is permanent.
Sheehan, Beirne and JGP are nailed on starters and Porter,
Furlong, JVDF, Conan, Aki, Ringrose, Lowe and Keenan can all
expect to be in the conversation to start or at least be in the
23
The point I was making is that apart from a few marginal calls,
there really can't be any complaints of Irish players
dominating.
I know hating-on Leinster is very trendy right now, but the
notion of an overwhelming bias that I've seen in some forums
(not this one) are pretty wide of the mark for me.
#Post#: 137775--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lions Squad Announcement Live Thursday 8/5/25 14:00
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: May 9, 2025, 12:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm not doubting the point that they seem a complete side and
I'm certainly not Leinster hating. I may disagree with all the
euphoria around them as I take into account that they play
together all season long in every competition so will obviously
benefit from that. Man for man, they play less league minutes
than other players as they are protected from burning out.
I'm also not disputing that they should be on the tour, I just
feel that players work hard across 2 seasons to be in contention
but are discounted on gut feeling and personal view when they
should also have a shot.
Has JVDF had a better two years than wEV? Has Pollock had a
better season than Kenners? You could argue that doing it for
Ireland it's a yes but it's not wEVs fault that Eddie/Borthers
don't fancy him in the shirt. Pollock is in great form over 5
months but is he doing any different to what Kenners has done
since 2022 or what Dommers did in the title winning year? No but
the media love him because he's arrogant.
I don't doubt this is all rabbit hole stuff and incredibly moot
as the way they select won't change I just personally feel that
good players who deserve it miss out.
#Post#: 137779--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lions Squad Announcement Live Thursday 8/5/25 14:00
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: May 9, 2025, 1:48 pm
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Eh, Pollock has been doing things that Kenners can't. He's
absolute box office. He's more like Marcus in that sense, just
burst onto the scene with match turning and match winning
moments on seemingly a weekly basis, pulling off incredible
tries abs generally being the star of the show every time.
Kenners is a wonderful player but it's not a good comparison, I
feel.
Wev's had a relatively poor season so not sure why he's being
compared to the guy who was quite recently world player of the
year
#Post#: 137783--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lions Squad Announcement Live Thursday 8/5/25 14:00
DIR By: RodneyRegis
Date: May 9, 2025, 5:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> He was never an inside centre. He was a 13 for Wasps who had
played a bit of 15. Eddie made him a winger and that was the
best we ever saw of him.
>
> "Always played well for England" is a bit odd. Post 2019
things started to go wrong. He had some pretty high profile
howlers, was genuinely a liability for a while before he got
dropped last time, and of course there's the red card against
Argentina...
>
--- End Quote ---
Yeah, this is some serious revisionism (not from you, whoever
you were replying to). Daly absolutely stank the place out for
years.
I agree he was much better as an outside centre, he could never
defend on the wing.
#Post#: 137784--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lions Squad Announcement Live Thursday 8/5/25 14:00
DIR By: RodneyRegis
Date: May 9, 2025, 5:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
.
--- Quote from: KentQuin link ---
>
> Ireland rightly have the most players in the squad. They've
easily been the strongest and most consistent of the home
nations over the last four year cycle.
>
> How many of the 15 picked are eveb debatable? To my mind its
only Kelleher, Hansen, McCarthy and Ryan where it's a marginal
call. The others are all shoo in's for the squad.
>
--- End Quote ---
Lowe and hansen are both jokeshop picks. Ryan probably gets in
on rep. Kelleher would never have gone on tour if he wasn't
mates with the boss.
#Post#: 137785--------------------------------------------------
Re: Lions Squad Announcement Live Thursday 8/5/25 14:00
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: May 9, 2025, 5:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Lowe makes some mistakes but he's a match winner who creates and
scores tries at will at times, and has an absolute siege gun
boot
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