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#Post#: 135262--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mick Cleary: 'England are back among the heavyweights.'
DIR By: Yareet
Date: March 18, 2025, 7:37 am
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--- Quote from: MaidstoneQuin link ---
>
> On a personal level for a complete performance probably 2019
WC era. This was more in terms of a complete "looking in
control" aspect where im coming from. The AB games showed
promise though last summer
>
--- End Quote ---
From memory, I'd say we looked in control v Argentina and Chile
in RWC 23 and v Japan last year.
#Post#: 135264--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mick Cleary: 'England are back among the heavyweights.'
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 18, 2025, 7:42 am
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You'd back Japan to give this Wales team a hiding, I suspect.
You can't overstate just how awful they were. It was more like
the 2007 warmup match where we put 60 on their squad players.
#Post#: 135265--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mick Cleary: 'England are back among the heavyweights.'
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:01 am
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--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> From memory, I'd say we looked in control v Argentina and
Chile in RWC 23 and v Japan last year.
>
--- End Quote ---
Pumas game yes, but as per my post it was about genuine
enjoyment overall. I’m almost certain I could post the sky is
blue though and have it challenged
#Post#: 135266--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mick Cleary: 'England are back among the heavyweights.'
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:12 am
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Hmmm. We were very good against a very bad Wales team. No
complaints there.
We were lucky against France but a win's a win. Same against
Scotland, playing awful rugby.
We won comfortably against Italy without playing all that well.
Against ireland we weren't very good.
In the autumn, against Australia and new Zealand what cost us
was poor substitutions really.
We've seen false dawns before. We have good players but I just
don't think borthwick is comfortable with a more expansive game
and I can see us reverting to safety first against better
opponents
#Post#: 135271--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mick Cleary: 'England are back among the heavyweights.'
DIR By: dinsdale
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:38 am
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--- Quote from: carlgibbs13 link ---
>
> Possibly.. Very lucky in the first 3 games, but rent England
due a bit of luck?
> Against Italy and Wales, they played very well. Maybe the
Borthwick era is coming to life?
>
--- End Quote ---
Against the two worst teams they played very well. News at Ten!
Anybody declaring the renaissance of English rugby based on that
might be in for a shock.
I'm concerned that Borthwick will look at the close wins against
France & Scotland and think his kick the leather off it tactics
worked rather than England getting several years worth of get
out of jail free cards all at once due to a series of bad
mistakes from the opposition.
#Post#: 135274--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mick Cleary: 'England are back among the heavyweights.'
DIR By: Yareet
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:49 am
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--- Quote from: MaidstoneQuin link ---
>
> Pumas game yes, but as per my post it was about genuine
enjoyment overall. I’m almost certain I could post the sky is
blue though and have it challenged
>
--- End Quote ---
OK but does a team have to win for a fan to enjoy the game? Do
we only get enjoyment when we control a game for 80 minutes?
Personally, I would rather watch the 2024 France v England game
than the Chile RWC match. Even Care said that Saturday's match
wasn't enjoyable. Hence, I'm surprised that this was the first
time in a long time that you've enjoyed watching England.
Each to their own but only enjoying games that your team
controls leaves a lot of games that you'll potentially get no
enjoyment from.
#Post#: 135276--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mick Cleary: 'England are back among the heavyweights.'
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: March 18, 2025, 8:53 am
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I must say, as a general rule, I tend to enjoy England games
where we win far more than when we lose.
#Post#: 135280--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mick Cleary: 'England are back among the heavyweights.'
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: March 18, 2025, 9:05 am
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--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> OK but does a team have to win for a fan to enjoy the game? Do
we only get enjoyment when we control a game for 80 minutes?
>
> Personally, I would rather watch the 2024 France v England
game than the Chile RWC match. Even Care said that Saturday's
match wasn't enjoyable. Hence, I'm surprised that this was the
first time in a long time that you've enjoyed watching England.
>
> Each to their own but only enjoying games that your team
controls leaves a lot of games that you'll potentially get no
enjoyment from.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think it certainly helps. But there are times when your team
may win, but still not enjoyable through one reason or another,
usually due to a stop start affair with nothing exciting of
note.
I enjoyed the Wales game because the most recent offerings by
England this season have in large been poor. Yes we beat France
and Scotland, which was great, however they didn't feel
"convincing", in the sense it was largely reliant on a team
having an absolute off day, along with a few other things going
in your favor. Italy was an improvement, but subconsciously you
are still telling yourself "It is Italy, and its at home".
Despite Wales' position, it wasn't a game I thought was a given
as well. We won our last 6n game under SB at the Principality,
and they were poor then, but to have had such a control of the
game and having things overall work in ways they haven't before
was the enjoying factor.
#Post#: 135282--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mick Cleary: 'England are back among the heavyweights.'
DIR By: Yareet
Date: March 18, 2025, 9:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Brown Bottle link ---
>
> I must say, as a general rule, I tend to enjoy England games
where we win far more than when we lose.
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote from: MaidstoneQuin link ---
>
> I think it certainly helps. But there are times when your team
may win, but still not enjoyable through one reason or another,
usually due to a stop start affair with nothing exciting of
note.
>
> I enjoyed the Wales game because the most recent offerings by
England this season have in large been poor. Yes we beat France
and Scotland, which was great, however they didn't feel
"convincing", in the sense it was largely reliant on a team
having an absolute off day, along with a few other things going
in your favor. Italy was an improvement, but subconsciously you
are still telling yourself "It is Italy, and its at home".
>
> Despite Wales' position, it wasn't a game I thought was a
given as well. We won our last 6n game under SB at the
Principality, and they were poor then, but to have had such a
control of the game and having things overall work in ways they
haven't before was the enjoying factor.
>
--- End Quote ---
Fully agree that a win is not necessarily enjoyable. It can be
perfunctory (e.g. Chile).
But by the same token, can a loss not be exciting and therefore
enjoyable? Would the NZ AI game have been better if Ford's kick
went over? Yeah probably but the width of the post doesn't suck
all the enjoyment out of the previous 78 (??) minutes, does it?
#Post#: 135283--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mick Cleary: 'England are back among the heavyweights.'
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: March 18, 2025, 9:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Fully agree that a win is not necessarily enjoyable. It can be
perfunctory (e.g. Chile).
>
> But by the same token, can a loss not be exciting and
therefore enjoyable? Would the NZ AI game have been better if
Ford's kick went over? Yeah probably but the width of the post
doesn't suck all the enjoyment out of the previous 78 (??)
minutes, does it?
>
--- End Quote ---
It would have been good, and it was an overall good game, but I
think a few other factors for myself influence how much I feel
I've enjoyed something once the whistle has blown. For me its
about the bigger picture, and knowing things are going in the
right direction. For that game we lost 5 of the 6 games prior
(since the narrow win over Wales in the 6n) so for me it felt
"more of the same" in close defeats, and theres only so many
times you can lose and convince yourself you are moving in the
right direction, which would have more of a feeling of "it will
come". The following game we were utterly dire against Australia
so my feeling was compounded more that overall we just weren't
that good. Had we beaten NZ the game before and maybe sneaked
that win over France I would have had a different outlook
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