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#Post#: 133493--------------------------------------------------
Smith v Smith: no one does culture wars like English rugby
DIR By: DOK
Date: January 26, 2025, 6:35 am
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Choice between fly-halves could not be starker
HTML https://archive.is/PRJvo
vs
Why Fin Smith has earned chance to be England’s No1 fly half
HTML https://archive.is/P5Vwt
#Post#: 133494--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith v Smith: no one does culture wars like English rugby
DIR By: DOK
Date: January 26, 2025, 6:47 am
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[attachimg=1]I thought this table from the first article was
interesting
#Post#: 133496--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith v Smith: no one does culture wars like English rugby
DIR By: KentQuin
Date: January 26, 2025, 7:02 am
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At least the Oliver Brown article acknowledges Marcus as being a
far more rounded player than Cipriani. It does irk when he gets
labelled a "maverick" and lumped in with the likes of Cipriani
and Michalak, who were as likely to lose you a game with a
moment of madness than win it with a stroke of genius.
Fin Smith is a fine player and will continue to improve, but he
needs more experience and as it stands he's rightly behind
Marcus. In Saints last two big games he was anonymous versus
Leinster in the semi-final and then average in the prem final.
Marcus can do everything Fin and Ford can, plus he's a genuine
running threat himself.
Borthwick really is overcomplicated this. Play Marcus at 10 flat
to the gainline with runners off him, and England will start
cracking opposition defences on a regular basis.
#Post#: 133498--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith v Smith: no one does culture wars like English rugby
DIR By: A222Quin
Date: January 26, 2025, 7:33 am
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For once I complete agree with the headline. Only English rugby
would turn having these two talented but different into some
bizarre ‘culture war’.
#Post#: 133499--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith v Smith: no one does culture wars like English rugby
DIR By: poorfour
Date: January 26, 2025, 7:39 am
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I've long said that Marcus is a percentage player. He just plays
different percentages from other players
His skill set is such that he has options that aren't available
to most fly halves, and he makes good decisions about which to
try. That isn't working as well as it could at international
level, partly because he's still learning what doesn't work at
international level, but mostly because he doesn't have players
around him who are on his wavelength. England either need to
commit to giving him the tools to do the job, or revert to Fin
and a more conventional style.
#Post#: 133509--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith v Smith: no one does culture wars like English rugby
DIR By: Quinston Churchill
Date: January 26, 2025, 2:46 pm
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--- Quote from: A222Quin link ---
>
> For once I complete agree with the headline. Only English
rugby would turn having these two talented but different into
some bizarre ‘culture war’.
>
--- End Quote ---
Who do you mean by ‘English rugby’ though?
As it stands, Borthwick has backed Marcus post World Cup and
unless he takes a different direction, a switch to Fin Smith is
only media speculation.
I think a scenario where Fin is simply chosen ahead of Marcus is
unlikely.
Even if he does make a change, I think it would owe more to
Furbank’s injury than a change of ‘culture’ and we’d still see
Marcus starting albeit at 15. That would say more about our
depth/quality at 15 than it does about Marcus or Fin.
#Post#: 133512--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith v Smith: no one does culture wars like English rugby
DIR By: A222Quin
Date: January 27, 2025, 1:31 am
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--- Quote from: Quinston Churchill link ---
>
> Who do you mean by ‘English rugby’ though?
>
> As it stands, Borthwick has backed Marcus post World Cup and
unless he takes a different direction, a switch to Fin Smith is
only media speculation.
>
> I think a scenario where Fin is simply chosen ahead of Marcus
is unlikely.
>
> Even if he does make a change, I think it would owe more to
Furbank’s injury than a change of ‘culture’ and we’d still see
Marcus starting albeit at 15. That would say more about our
depth/quality at 15 than it does about Marcus or Fin.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not really referring to Borthwick, he has been fairly
consistent. It’s more about the whole discourse surrounding the
England team. The desperation that so many seem to have for
switching something after a short period of time. You feel that
in most other countries, the discussion would be about how to
best utilise these 2 talented players. In England, a lot seems
to be pick a side and kick lumps out of the other.
#Post#: 133515--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith v Smith: no one does culture wars like English rugby
DIR By: poorfour
Date: January 27, 2025, 2:59 am
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--- Quote from: A222Quin link ---
>
> Not really referring to Borthwick, he has been fairly
consistent. It’s more about the whole discourse surrounding the
England team. The desperation that so many seem to have for
switching something after a short period of time. You feel that
in most other countries, the discussion would be about how to
best utilise these 2 talented players. In England, a lot seems
to be pick a side and kick lumps out of the other.
>
--- End Quote ---
Other unions have had similar chopping and changing, though.
Barrett vs Mo'unga for the All Blacks, Pollard vs Libbock vs
that kid whose surname I can't spell but keeps trying to play
through injuries for the Boks, however many fly halves Ireland
have been through since Sexton. Even Scotland ditched Russell
for a while, though that was mainly because he had a bust up
with Toonie.
The English press like to make more of a meal of it, though...
#Post#: 133516--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith v Smith: no one does culture wars like English rugby
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: January 27, 2025, 3:07 am
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I think that's more the point, Poorfour, it's a media issue more
than a head coach issue. Just look at all the hysteria around
Mercer when he was in France. Came over here and was
rubbish/injured. Then it was Barbeary, then J Willis (before he
went off to France), then Earl, then Pearson, now Pollock and T
Willis, yet ignoring Kenningham and pre-December wEV.......I get
it's their job, by the way, but Jones/Borethick have always
largely ignored them all.
If there was a 3rd FH in the mix it would be fever pitch city.
Sadly, we'll only know if they play F Smith for the 6N as a
starter and see how it goes but then they'll all be on
Borethick's back for not picking Marcus, apart from our
favourite welsh nepotistic journalist.
#Post#: 133519--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith v Smith: no one does culture wars like English rugby
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: January 27, 2025, 3:31 am
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Yes Borthwick has committed to selecting Marcus Smith much more
of late. No Borthwick has not committed to giving him the
players he needs around him consistently.
It struck me watching a cracking game between Glaws and Tigers
yesterday that it is possible to "do a Gloucester" and change
from up the jumper play the percentages rugby to a very
Quinsesque style of rugby. It can be done.
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