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#Post#: 133046--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 6 Nations Squad announced
DIR By: Yareet
Date: January 17, 2025, 5:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Although the England setup needed a lot of persuading that
Asher's future wasn't as a loosehead
>
--- End Quote ---
Yup but he/Sale have been pretty firm. I wonder if people look
at his height and assume he's a 1. Based purely on Wikipedia
Marler, Rodd and Genge are all around 185cm (6'1") whereas Cole,
Sela and Fasogban are all around 192cm (6'4"). Asher is 181cm
(5'11").
#Post#: 133047--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 6 Nations Squad announced
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: January 17, 2025, 6:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Yup but he/Sale have been pretty firm. I wonder if people look
at his height and assume he's a 1. Based purely on Wikipedia
Marler, Rodd and Genge are all around 185cm (6'1") whereas Cole,
Sela and Fasogban are all around 192cm (6'4"). Asher is 181cm
(5'11").
>
--- End Quote ---
Weight & width more likely, I think. He does look a bit
undersized compared to most international tightheads.
#Post#: 133048--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 6 Nations Squad announced
DIR By: poorfour
Date: January 17, 2025, 6:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Weight & width more likely, I think. He does look a bit
undersized compared to most international tightheads.
>
--- End Quote ---
So did Tom Smith, and look where that got him...
More seriously, whether a player is a better fit as tighthead or
a loosehead seems to me to be as much a matter of attitude and
technique as it is pure size.
Ms Poofour Maj is playing U18s ACE League this year and has
played both sides, but she and her coaches have decided to focus
her on TH because her style and technique are better suited to
resisting what the opposing loosehead can throw at her and then
exploiting their mistakes (leading to a class bit of sledging in
one match against an LH who set a little bit long and found
herself up close and personal with the grass - "You're doing
this all yourself, you know? I'm just helping").
#Post#: 133051--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 6 Nations Squad announced
DIR By: Yareet
Date: January 17, 2025, 6:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Weight & width more likely, I think. He does look a bit
undersized compared to most international tightheads.
>
--- End Quote ---
All the props I mentioned are largely the same weight (117kg +/-
2kg) - bar Cole and Fasogban. Asher is the lightest but
apparently only 1kg lighter than Sela.
I do agree with Poorfour. Although I'm relatively tall for
Counties 4 prop, I love playing 1 because it's where I feel most
comfortable. I will play 3 if needed but my 3 would never play
1.
#Post#: 133054--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 6 Nations Squad announced
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: January 17, 2025, 6:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> So did Tom Smith, and look where that got him...
>
> More seriously, whether a player is a better fit as tighthead
or a loosehead seems to me to be as much a matter of attitude
and technique as it is pure size.
>
> Ms Poofour Maj is playing U18s ACE League this year and has
played both sides, but she and her coaches have decided to focus
her on TH because her style and technique are better suited to
resisting what the opposing loosehead can throw at her and then
exploiting their mistakes (leading to a class bit of sledging in
one match against an LH who set a little bit long and found
herself up close and personal with the grass - "You're doing
this all yourself, you know? I'm just helping").
>
--- End Quote ---
Tom Smith last played about 15 years ago, and with the greatest
respect, amateur rugby is not what we're discussing here, let
alone u18s girls. The professional game has had a size arms race
for decades.
You only have to look at the tightheads playing international
rugby to see the difference. Even allowing for the comical idea
that Asher - despite being shorter - is within a few kg of
someone like Finley Bealham who is 6'2 and 118kg or the
allegedly 120kg Joe wide-as-a-house Marler, he is quite
obviously not as broad as any of the international tightheads
and gives up at least 10-25kg to virtually every other
tighthead.
Will Stuart - 135kg
Taidgh Furlong - 125kg
Zander Fagerson - 125kg
Dan Cole - 123kg
Georges-Henri Colombe - 142kg (the 147kg Atonio has retired I
think)
Tevita Tatafu - 140kg
Wilco Louw - pick a number and add a few more
Thomas du Toit - 132kg
Frans Malherbe - 145kg
Vincent Koch - 118kg (the only other one I can find anywhere
near the same weight)
Taniela Tupou - 148kg
Zane Nonggorr - 129kg
Tyrel Lomax - 127kg
Fletcher Newell - 121kg
Tamaiti Williams - 144kg
It's not that complicated an idea. I think he should be allowed
to prove whether he can mix it properly with the big boys and
dominate bigger players, but I can totally understand why people
might think his future lies at loosehead.
#Post#: 133067--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 6 Nations Squad announced
DIR By: Yareet
Date: January 17, 2025, 8:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Tom Smith last played about 15 years ago, and with the
greatest respect, amateur rugby is not what we're discussing
here, let alone u18s girls. The professional game has had a size
arms race for decades.
>
> You only have to look at the tightheads playing international
rugby to see the difference. Even allowing for the comical idea
that Asher - despite being shorter - is within a few kg of
someone like Finley Bealham who is 6'2 and 118kg or the
allegedly 120kg Joe wide-as-a-house Marler, he is quite
obviously not as broad as any of the international tightheads
and gives up at least 10-25kg to virtually every other
tighthead.
>
> Will Stuart - 135kg
> Taidgh Furlong - 125kg
> Zander Fagerson - 125kg
> Dan Cole - 123kg
> Georges-Henri Colombe - 142kg (the 147kg Atonio has retired I
think)
> Tevita Tatafu - 140kg
> Wilco Louw - pick a number and add a few more
> Thomas du Toit - 132kg
> Frans Malherbe - 145kg
> Vincent Koch - 118kg (the only other one I can find anywhere
near the same weight)
> Taniela Tupou - 148kg
> Zane Nonggorr - 129kg
> Tyrel Lomax - 127kg
> Fletcher Newell - 121kg
> Tamaiti Williams - 144kg
>
> It's not that complicated an idea. I think he should be
allowed to prove whether he can mix it properly with the big
boys and dominate bigger players, but I can totally understand
why people might think his future lies at loosehead.
>
--- End Quote ---
Which was my original point. When given the chance, he's played
against very seasoned pros and at least held his own at 3.
But as I've said before, Jason Leonard reckons Asher's a 1 so
who am I to argue?
#Post#: 133069--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 6 Nations Squad announced
DIR By: poorfour
Date: January 17, 2025, 8:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Tom Smith last played about 15 years ago, and with the
greatest respect, amateur rugby is not what we're discussing
here, let alone u18s girls. The professional game has had a size
arms race for decades.
>
--- End Quote ---
15 years is within the "decades" you're talking about, of
course... and my point about Smith was that he faced of against
Os du Randt (135kg) on the Lions tour and ahead of the first
test the media expected him to be destroyed, but Smith was able
to use his relative lack of size coupled with his strength to
nullify whatever Os could throw at him.
You also appear to have missed the last decade.
Giant props were definitely a trend up until about 2012, but the
introduction of the new scrum engagement tipped the balance back
towards smaller, more technical tightheads for nearly a decade.
Remember when Quins let James Johnston (140kg) go after the 2012
season?
We replaced him with Sinckler (116kg) and Collier (116kg) and
did pretty well with them for most of the past decade. The dial
seems to have swung back towards bigger tightheads now, but
outside of the Bomb Squad that's something that has only really
happened in the last couple of years.
#Post#: 133075--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 6 Nations Squad announced
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: January 17, 2025, 9:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> 15 years is within the "decades" you're talking about, of
course... and my point about Smith was that he faced of against
Os du Randt (135kg) on the Lions tour and ahead of the first
test the media expected him to be destroyed, but Smith was able
to use his relative lack of size coupled with his strength to
nullify whatever Os could throw at him.
>
> You also appear to have missed the last decade.
>
> Giant props were definitely a trend up until about 2012, but
the introduction of the new scrum engagement tipped the balance
back towards smaller, more technical tightheads for nearly a
decade. Remember when Quins let James Johnston (140kg) go after
the 2012 season?
>
> We replaced him with Sinckler (116kg) and Collier (116kg) and
did pretty well with them for most of the past decade. The dial
seems to have swung back towards bigger tightheads now, but
outside of the Bomb Squad that's something that has only really
happened in the last couple of years.
>
--- End Quote ---
There hasn't been a regular international prop of Smith's size
since that I can think of. And yes, he overlaps the start of the
arms race. And, without putting too fine a point on it, he was a
loose head anyway!!
Yes, the sizes have increased over time. That's what it means to
have an arms race, it's constant escalation. The 2015 sides
still included these huge blokes: Dan Cole, Kieran Brookes,
Davey Wilson, Frans Malherbe, Trevor Nyakane, Taidgh Furlong,
Connie Oosthuizen, Charlie Faumuina, Owen Franks, Antonio, Mike
Ross, Nathan White, Lorenzo Cittadini - but fewer and generally
smaller than the current list of absolute behemoths in the
position.
As for missing the last decade - all of the original names have
played international rugby very recently. I don't really know
what you're getting at there.
#Post#: 133077--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 6 Nations Squad announced
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: January 17, 2025, 9:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
A total aside, btw - Smith did brilliantly against Os but still
went backwards at a rate of knots on several occasions. Had the
joy of rewatching the documentary recently and was surprised how
much we were getting pumped
#Post#: 133078--------------------------------------------------
Re: England 6 Nations Squad announced
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: January 17, 2025, 10:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I’ve never been in a scrum in my life but I’ve seen a fair few.
From what I’ve seen and from listening to those that know about
these things there is not always a size advantage particularly
with height. A shorter opponent could mean that the taller one
can’t get into their best position to put all the power through
in the most efficient way. They may have to get longer to get
low enough or not have a straight back . The shorter players
would also find it easier to get under their opponent and get
them into an uncomfortable position.
You see it all the time but the one that sticks most in
my mind was France v Wales 6N “100 minute” game where the French
were trying to use up time and get the much smaller prop back on
the pitch cos the massive one was struggling . A mysterious head
injury occurred and the little feller came on and from the
subsequent scrum France won the game. Thats how I recall it
anyway.
Sir Jase was only 5’ 10” and he did ok but in a slightly
different era. Fin had that big prop in France last year too.
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