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#Post#: 132908--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Wilson the right man?
DIR By: scottymhor
Date: January 13, 2025, 7:34 am
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I am not a Glasgow supporter, but rugby in Scotland is a village
and I know a number of Glasgow players.
Danny Wilson did well as part of the Scotland set up under
Townsend.
Based on that he was promoted to the Glasgow job. Things started
OK than went south until Glasgow took a thrashing from Leinster
which was the last straw and resulted in him getting fired. By
then he had lost the dressing room.
Franco Smith came in and was utterly, utterly uncompromising.
Smith insisted on them playing a certain way regardless. The
theory was that they built a foundation that every player in the
squad could do in their sleep so if things went south they could
fall back on it. Any player who stepped out of line or who did
something stupid got annilhilated by Smith.
On the other hand, a there was carrot as well as stick. He got
the squad to buy into the 'Glasgow way' and a lot of youngsters
were given their chances and took them with both hands. Then he
opened things up and Glasgow, with the same squad, went on to
win the URC and are now good enough to send a weakened team to
Toulon and come within a point.
Wilson looks suspiciously like a good person to be part of a
coaching team but not the man setting the direction. Glasgow may
have lost to Quins last year, but frankly based on what I have
seen of Quins this year if Glasgow go full noise at the Stoop I
expect that result to be reversed as Glasgow play take on Quins
in either an open running game, and also have the hard bastards
who will take it to the trenches if needed.
#Post#: 132909--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Wilson the right man?
DIR By: Yareet
Date: January 13, 2025, 7:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: euroquin link ---
>
> In terms of results, it's mid-January. We have only won five
games this season in the main competitions. In the prem, three
of our four wins have been against the bottom two teams (who I
suspect are not spending up to the salary cap). We have just one
prem win against the more readily comparable sides (admittedly
our best result of the season against Sarries). In the Champions
Cup we beat a second string SA team who'd flown up to Europe.
This is classic flat-track bully performance.
>
> In terms of performance, we are significantly less
entertaining than in the last few seasons. Those
length-of-the-field wonder tries full of offloads are a rarity
this season. No sign of the miracle comebacks at the death:
quite the reverse, we have dropped off badly in the last 20
minutes of games. The defence looked quite a bit better at one
point (the Sarries game being the high point) but we have
started to get leakier again. We even got nilled in a game for
the first time in a decade.
>
> In terms of squad strength, we are clearly weaker than last
season. The departures of Collier, Andre and Lynagh, and now
Marler, must have freed up a stack of cash. What on earth has
that been spent on? If we are indeed spending up to the cap, we
are not exactly getting value for money. And it is now strongly
rumoured that two of our brightest academy talents who were
breaking into the starting XXIII are leaving. Our recruitment
and retention strategy does not look great at the moment.
>
> Add all that up and you can see why there is so much
discontent.
>
--- End Quote ---
If I may offer my customary outsider’s view? As ever, this isn’t
meant to kick the hornet’s nest but rather to give a less
Quins-centric view.
Feel very free to correct me but may take is that a fair summary
of your points would be:
•
•
•
Taking the first two points together, I’ll ask my perennial
question - how much happier would you be if Quins were playing
the same way but winning?
I do get that playing ugly and losing is the worst of all worlds
(been there, got that grey away shirt) but pre-AIs/Europe, you’d
played 6, won 3. The three losses were against last season’s Top
3 and by a combined total of 7 points.
It’s “ifs and ands” but add in the Sarries game and it shows
that you were competing with the teams you seemed to consider
your peers. Unless the coaching staff have changed their
approach since then, I don't think it's as easy as saying
"Wilson out".
And as in previous years, I’ll ask the same question about the
league. If Quins are underperforming, which team is above them
that shouldn’t be?
The league is (IMO) a pretty good indicator of how good teams
are. At the moment, Bath are 6 points clear of Bristol in 2nd.
Bristol in turn are 6 points clear of Sale in 6th who are 4
points clear of Saints in 8th. Bristol have 6 wins, Saints have
5.
Or in other words, everyone from 2nd to 8th is much of a
muchness. A bounce of a ball, an injury, a disputed ref’s call
or a player brainfart can make a huge difference.
My take with regard to recruitment/retention is that in 21,
Quins had a star first choice player with a 7/10 behind him. I
think 9 of the starting XV from the final were (or quickly
became) Tier 1 Test players. Compare with BG16 where it was (I
think) 5 and a retiree.
However, this is an issue at every club. On the BBC pod, Care
talked about teams across the Prem having less depth as the
salary cap bites. DoRs therefore need to decide how best to cut
their cloth.
Much as a DoR might like to, there isn't the cap space to have a
first XV of stars, a bench of 8/10s and tie down the promising
juniors. Nobody knows what the right answer is but I can
understand wanting a squad of 7/10s rather than a few 9/10s and
hoping they don't injured because the alternatives are 5/10.
#Post#: 132918--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Wilson the right man?
DIR By: euroquin
Date: January 13, 2025, 8:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> If I may offer my customary outsider’s view? As ever, this
isn’t meant to kick the hornet’s nest but rather to give a less
Quins-centric view.
>
> Feel very free to correct me but may take is that a fair
summary of your points would be:
> •
> •
> •
>
> Taking the first two points together, I’ll ask my perennial
question - how much happier would you be if Quins were playing
the same way but winning?
>
> I do get that playing ugly and losing is the worst of all
worlds (been there, got that grey away shirt) but
pre-AIs/Europe, you’d played 6, won 3. The three losses were
against last season’s Top 3 and by a combined total of 7 points.
>
> It’s “ifs and ands” but add in the Sarries game and it shows
that you were competing with the teams you seemed to consider
your peers. Unless the coaching staff have changed their
approach since then, I don't think it's as easy as saying
"Wilson out".
>
> And as in previous years, I’ll ask the same question about the
league. If Quins are underperforming, which team is above them
that shouldn’t be?
>
> The league is (IMO) a pretty good indicator of how good teams
are. At the moment, Bath are 6 points clear of Bristol in 2nd.
Bristol in turn are 6 points clear of Sale in 6th who are 4
points clear of Saints in 8th. Bristol have 6 wins, Saints have
5.
>
> Or in other words, everyone from 2nd to 8th is much of a
muchness. A bounce of a ball, an injury, a disputed ref’s call
or a player brainfart can make a huge difference.
>
> My take with regard to recruitment/retention is that in 21,
Quins had a star first choice player with a 7/10 behind him. I
think 9 of the starting XV from the final were (or quickly
became) Tier 1 Test players. Compare with BG16 where it was (I
think) 5 and a retiree.
>
> However, this is an issue at every club. On the BBC pod, Care
talked about teams across the Prem having less depth as the
salary cap bites. DoRs therefore need to decide how best to cut
their cloth.
>
> Much as a DoR might like to, there isn't the cap space to have
a first XV of stars, a bench of 8/10s and tie down the promising
juniors. Nobody knows what the right answer is but I can
understand wanting a squad of 7/10s rather than a few 9/10s and
hoping they don't injured because the alternatives are 5/10.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for this Yareet - I always very much appreciate your
input on this forum. That's partly why I replied to your initial
post!
I think the pain that Quins fans (well me at least) are feeling
is the sensation of relative decline. I think we have got worse
compared to Quins 2023/24 but also got worse comparatively
compared to the other top 8 English clubs (let alone the top
European sides).
I agree - the table doesn't lie. So to answer one of your
questions, I don't think that any club above Quins in the prem
doesn't deserve to be there. And that's my point: given that the
top 8 at least all have the same financial resources, league
position comes down (apart from the random elements you cite,
which should however broadly even out over a season) to value
for money in recruitment/retention and quality of coaching.
On R&R, I agree with all your points about the salary caps and
the choices to be made - but these are the same for all clubs.
Some of them seem to make a better fist of it than others. Bath,
Sarries come to mind as positive examples; Northampton as a
negative one this season (but they won it last year so maybe the
fans could live with it). I just don't think Quins have covered
themselves in glory on that front in the last 6-12 months.
Then there is coaching. Of course I'd love to win whilst playing
Baabaas style rugby every week. But I could live with regularly
winning ugly or playing beautiful rugby with reasonable levels
of success (which has been the previous couple of years).
However in 37 years of being a Quins fan I've never seen us
regularly win ugly and the last coach that tried it was not
exactly a roaring success! (There are exceptions - this season's
Sarries game and the away win up at your place a couple of years
ago spring to mind - but they are very much exceptions).
I'm not a knee-jerk, soccer-style, sack the manager at the first
sign of problems type (although it worked for us in 2020!) I
don't imagine any coaching personnel changes will be made before
the end of the season. But if it goes the way I current feel it
might, then questions will need to be asked.
Of course I could be wrong - maybe we'll get a 5 pointer against
Glasgow next week and then grab a few upset away wins in the
ECC. Or we actually manage to win a few in a row (and away in
particular) in the prem and sneak into the top 4. Either would
be an aceptable outcome (trophies are nice but I'm realistic
about the competitive nature of both competitions).
#Post#: 132919--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Wilson the right man?
DIR By: Henry2018
Date: January 13, 2025, 9:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think some of the issues this season have been around correct
selection and use of the bench. Whilst it’s the ‘fashion ‘ these
days to always practically empty the bench at times it seems to
totally upset the balance of the team ! Why if we are having a
purple patch do the coaches suddenly decide to swap loads of
players . They should all be fit enough to play out 80 mins if
needed. Several times this season this has happened and it’s to
our detriment . Players who are connecting with each other after
perhaps a shaky start suddenly find themselves with re different
players either side of them so it’s like starting the game
again. Wilson’s choices are decidedly odd at times
#Post#: 132920--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Wilson the right man?
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: January 13, 2025, 10:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Could the problem simply be the one we had before under Gustard.
Joe’s comments about too much kicking may indicate that all the
players aren’t buying into this game plan. You know what it’s
like when you don’t like doing something. Recruitment isn’t as
easy as some people think. Target certain players, along with
many other clubs, wait until they’re out of contract, hope
you’ve made the best pitch for them. Then work out what you’re
going to do when they sign for someone else and time is running
out.
#Post#: 132921--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Wilson the right man?
DIR By: Yareet
Date: January 13, 2025, 12:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: euroquin link ---
>
> Thanks for this Yareet - I always very much appreciate your
input on this forum. That's partly why I replied to your initial
post!
>
> I think the pain that Quins fans (well me at least) are
feeling is the sensation of relative decline. I think we have
got worse compared to Quins 2023/24 but also got worse
comparatively compared to the other top 8 English clubs (let
alone the top European sides).
>
> I agree - the table doesn't lie. So to answer one of your
questions, I don't think that any club above Quins in the prem
doesn't deserve to be there. And that's my point: given that the
top 8 at least all have the same financial resources, league
position comes down (apart from the random elements you cite,
which should however broadly even out over a season) to value
for money in recruitment/retention and quality of coaching.
>
> On R&R, I agree with all your points about the salary caps and
the choices to be made - but these are the same for all clubs.
Some of them seem to make a better fist of it than others. Bath,
Sarries come to mind as positive examples; Northampton as a
negative one this season (but they won it last year so maybe the
fans could live with it). I just don't think Quins have covered
themselves in glory on that front in the last 6-12 months.
>
> Then there is coaching. Of course I'd love to win whilst
playing Baabaas style rugby every week. But I could live with
regularly winning ugly or playing beautiful rugby with
reasonable levels of success (which has been the previous couple
of years). However in 37 years of being a Quins fan I've never
seen us regularly win ugly and the last coach that tried it was
not exactly a roaring success! (There are exceptions - this
season's Sarries game and the away win up at your place a couple
of years ago spring to mind - but they are very much
exceptions).
>
> I'm not a knee-jerk, soccer-style, sack the manager at the
first sign of problems type (although it worked for us in 2020!)
I don't imagine any coaching personnel changes will be made
before the end of the season. But if it goes the way I current
feel it might, then questions will need to be asked.
>
> Of course I could be wrong - maybe we'll get a 5 pointer
against Glasgow next week and then grab a few upset away wins in
the ECC. Or we actually manage to win a few in a row (and away
in particular) in the prem and sneak into the top 4. Either
would be an aceptable outcome (trophies are nice but I'm
realistic about the competitive nature of both competitions).
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote from: euroquin link ---
>
> Thanks for this Yareet - I always very much appreciate your
input on this forum. That's partly why I replied to your initial
post!
>
> I think the pain that Quins fans (well me at least) are
feeling is the sensation of relative decline. I think we have
got worse compared to Quins 2023/24 but also got worse
comparatively compared to the other top 8 English clubs (let
alone the top European sides).
>
> I agree - the table doesn't lie. So to answer one of your
questions, I don't think that any club above Quins in the prem
doesn't deserve to be there. And that's my point: given that the
top 8 at least all have the same financial resources, league
position comes down (apart from the random elements you cite,
which should however broadly even out over a season) to value
for money in recruitment/retention and quality of coaching.
>
> On R&R, I agree with all your points about the salary caps and
the choices to be made - but these are the same for all clubs.
Some of them seem to make a better fist of it than others. Bath,
Sarries come to mind as positive examples; Northampton as a
negative one this season (but they won it last year so maybe the
fans could live with it). I just don't think Quins have covered
themselves in glory on that front in the last 6-12 months.
>
> Then there is coaching. Of course I'd love to win whilst
playing Baabaas style rugby every week. But I could live with
regularly winning ugly or playing beautiful rugby with
reasonable levels of success (which has been the previous couple
of years). However in 37 years of being a Quins fan I've never
seen us regularly win ugly and the last coach that tried it was
not exactly a roaring success! (There are exceptions - this
season's Sarries game and the away win up at your place a couple
of years ago spring to mind - but they are very much
exceptions).
>
> I'm not a knee-jerk, soccer-style, sack the manager at the
first sign of problems type (although it worked for us in 2020!)
I don't imagine any coaching personnel changes will be made
before the end of the season. But if it goes the way I current
feel it might, then questions will need to be asked.
>
> Of course I could be wrong - maybe we'll get a 5 pointer
against Glasgow next week and then grab a few upset away wins in
the ECC. Or we actually manage to win a few in a row (and away
in particular) in the prem and sneak into the top 4. Either
would be an aceptable outcome (trophies are nice but I'm
realistic about the competitive nature of both competitions).
>
--- End Quote ---
I do get why you'd feel that way but I wonder if there may be
some recency bias based on the games post AIs.
Last season, Quins were one of 5 teams (3rd to 7th) who were
separated by 6 points (or 7 who were separated by 10 - 1st to
7th). Currently you're one of 5 teams (again 3rd to 7th) who are
separated by 7 points (or 7 who are separated by 10 - 2nd to
8th).
For a comparison, in the title-winning season (admittedly with a
bigger league) Quins finished 14 points behind Bristol.
Again, I'll say that the bulk of the teams in the Prem are very
similar. They can all beat each other on their day but key
injuries/an off day can make a massive difference.
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